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LMS Patriot Project Updates

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Gav106, Apr 10, 2011.

  1. Kylchap

    Kylchap Member

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    More bad news. At least one of the driving wheels needs to be scrapped.
     
  2. martin1656

    martin1656 Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Just when you hoped things had turned the corner, what are the nature of the defects, is it in any way connected with the welding and re welding of the key ways, or is it due to flaws in the casting, that have not until now come to light.
     
  3. Dunfanaghy Road

    Dunfanaghy Road Member

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    Someone 'tipped the black spot' to this project.
    Pat
     
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  4. keith6233

    keith6233 New Member

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  5. Southernman99

    Southernman99 Member Friend

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    Jesus. They don't seem to be having much luck with the wheels.
     
  6. Richard Roper

    Richard Roper Well-Known Member

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    Not good news at all. Hopefully once again this hurdle can be overcome and we can once again start moving forward.

    Richard.
     
  7. jnc

    jnc Part of the furniture

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    Sigh; I think if you look up 'Warrior Project' in the dictionary, it'd say "If It Wasn’t for Bad Luck I Wouldn’t Have Any Luck At All".
    Well, the Members' Monthly Bulletin which announced the problem says "a significant crack was detected in one of the trailing wheel pans". An inclusion or bubble would definitely be a casting issue, but a crack... A crack results (I think) from the application of force (external or internal). Since the wheels have never seen service (IIRC), the crack can't be due to operational stresses. Hard to see how machining could have done it, but... I consulted a structural engineer, and she mentioned the possibility of uneven cooling after casting.

    The irony is that without the need for the repair, it might not have been detected.

    I think the project's decision to test the other wheels is an extremely sound one. Hopefully nothing else will be found.

    Noel
     
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  8. std tank

    std tank Member

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    Wasn't it the one of the trailing wheels that they couldn't press off the axle and the axle had to be destroyed?
     
  9. osprey

    osprey Well-Known Member

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    Beggars the the question "why were they not properly inspected 10 years ago?" As a sponsor, very patient one I might add, I am becoming very despairing...
     
  10. jnc

    jnc Part of the furniture

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    I vaguely recall something about that; too busy/lazy to go look it up, though. If so, it would be interesting to know if this wheel was involved in that.

    Noel
     
  11. Gav106

    Gav106 Well-Known Member

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    As a volunteer who has helped to raise into the hundreds of thousands for this project, believe me, we all despair at times.

    There were a lot of things that the previous engineering team were supposed to have done, and people like myself, believe what they are telling us as they are older or profess to know what they are doing, however the new team are very much trying to make sure that what gets built is done to the best quality possible, with PRCLT also doing what they can to ensure what is done is done well.

    Yes if we were able to get the 100k back from llan it would be able to pay for a lot of the rectification work, but it's unlikely that we will receive any of that at all.

    But I just want to get the next 12 months over and done with and then see some real progress being made.
     
  12. Maunsell man

    Maunsell man Member

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    Maybe it's time to realise chasing the dragon with this disaster zone is futile and the best option is stick it together and display it as a static exhibit at a steam centre of shed like Butterley or the Engine House at Bewdley.

    Now the group is literally asking donors to stump up so they can chuck a huge amount of good money after bad rectifying fault after fault after fault with fundamental components. The standard of the contracted construction and erection work previously carried out together with the fundamental lack of QA and inspections from the client has tainted the final product forever. It appears that even a basic understanding of what was required to achieve a satisfactory working machine seems to be lacking by whoever was the designated Head of Engineering.

    There can surely be no means of gaining full assurance that what has been built will be satisfactory without essentially starting again if they are still finding defects like this. I would hazard a guess this is with the probable exception of the boiler and firebox assembly.

    This is a stark warning to well meaning enthusiast groups with high hopes and good intentions. Maybe the logo on the tender should be a Jolly Roger with a public health warning?
     
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  13. Tobbes

    Tobbes Member

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    This is pretty harsh.

    As an interested bystander (sorry, @Gav106) I think it will be really important for the movement as a whole for there to be lessons learned from what the Patriot Group have been through - it would be ideal if there was a public document of 'do this' and 'don't do that'. But I can see no reason why with PRCLT's engineering expertise, (4)5551 shouldn't emerge in a couple of years fit for the main line - and good for them, especially if they're still looking at that 2-6-4T project as build number two.
     
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  14. Maunsell man

    Maunsell man Member

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    Harsh but unfortunately justified. It's a car crash
     
  15. Tobbes

    Tobbes Member

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    Actually, uncalled for, I think. If 5551's supporters choose to stuff and mount their creation (the first stuffed and mounted engine that had never steamed?) then that's up to them. Instead, like the Clan lot did when they faced adversity, I expect that the Patriot crew will dig in and get the job done - and good luck to them (and PRCLT/HBSS and 'Leaky Finders').
     
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  16. Maunsell man

    Maunsell man Member

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    Been asked to dig in and replace defective material repeatedly. I for one will no longer contribute. It's a disaster with no end in sight. Sorry it's time to start again with anything that has made in Wales stamped on it or use it as a clothes horse in a diorama
     
  17. 43729

    43729 New Member

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    Genuine question, not wanting to upset anyone or infer anything. How many times has the wheel that has failed with cracking been pressed on and off its axle over the course of the project?
     
  18. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    It’s a long time ago now and my memory never was good but didn’t Tornado require a fair bit of early work with the frames to be re-done? The boiler didn’t have a good initial track record, either.
     
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  19. martin1656

    martin1656 Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I don't agree with the notion of its a car crash, but given the stories now coming out about the standard of workmanship, the engine needs to be thoroughly examined and every last bit checked, if that means stripping it down to the last nut and bolt, it has to be done, and at least then the trust can start knowing what they are facing, You can't turn back the clock, money spent can't be magicked back up again, but you learn where you went wrong, and don't repeat those same mistakes, the very first step is to ultrasonically test the remaining wheel sets and axle boxes, and go thorough every last thing, check for further cracking stretchers etc, its a pain, but has to be done, at least you in the princess trust have people that do know what they are doing, and don't cut corners.
     
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  20. W.Williams

    W.Williams Well-Known Member

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    The cracked wheel is unfortunate, but it and any other components are not be rectified by giving up.

    I suspect that many deriding this project wouldn’t if they were debased of certain viewpoints.

    Engineering is one of those activities in life where mistakes, failure, and opportunities to learn are replete and fundamental to the discipline.

    No matter how many issues arise, this project is going through issues that many other machines at other times have faced.

    If there is a general intolerance that it’s happening because it’s a new build, I would hope that those taking shots have well informed engineering backgrounds and understand that things often go awry in industry.

    That’s Engineering. That is the nature of it.
    Quitting, or complaining, does not get the job done.

    And anyway it’s better that any defects are found now rather than later down the line.

    I have every faith that calm heads will prevail.
     

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