If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

How far on a tender of water?

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Big Al, Jan 30, 2015.

  1. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2009
    Messages:
    22,726
    Likes Received:
    22,881
    Location:
    1016
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    This is a question to which there is not really a definitive answer because, of course, it depends on a number of factors such as the route the locomotive is travelling, the way it is driven and how water is used, or dare I suggest, wasted. When water columns were everywhere there was seldom a problem in getting any although sometimes circumstances might have conspired to trigger an unscheduled stop. For example, I remember once pausing for water on the SWML at Walton-on-Thames because it was seen as too risky to run the last 17 miles into Waterloo without a top up.

    The line I know best worked on about 80 miles (Salisbury and Southampton) before a routine stop for water was made but we are just a few weeks short of an event 50 years ago when 35022 ran from Waterloo to Yeovil Junction non stop on the East Devon Rail Tour - that's 123 miles. Basically this involved continuous steaming at high speed for two and a quarter hours - longer than scheduled because of en-route delays. When Tornado ran non stop to Grantham on the Top Gear trip this was for only an hour and 40 minutes with the same capacity tender as the Merchant Navy. That's (only) 105 miles compared with Merchant 22 but there was a difference in that Holland America Line popped up to Waterloo from Nine Elms whereas the Tornado fill up was rather more distant.

    Obviously, no risks are taken with steam charters nowadays and that explains why the water stops do seem to come more frequently than might seem necessary but it did get me wondering what the longest time or distance has been between water stops in the preservation era. The Tornado example above must be one of the longer ones.
     
    Big Al, Jan 30, 2015
    #1
  2. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2006
    Messages:
    16,552
    Likes Received:
    7,905
    Location:
    1012 / 60158
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Martin Perry, Jan 30, 2015
    #2
  3. twr12

    twr12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2007
    Messages:
    1,661
    Likes Received:
    822
    Most mainline steam loco water stops are planned for about 70 miles. Which usually gives a good safety margin of 1/4 tender. As watering is always done by tanker and pump, with flow restricted by the hose, more time can be lost with extended water stops, to put more water in each time, than could be saved by dropping one water stop per trip.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 30, 2015
    twr12, Jan 30, 2015
    #3
  4. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    4,117
    Likes Received:
    4,821
    Occupation:
    Once computers, now part time writer I suppose.
    Location:
    SE England
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    How can I say this tactfully:
    No.
    If flow rate is restricted by the hose diameter then that flow rate is constant, so it takes as much time to pump 4000 gals 3 times as 3000gals 4 times. However doubtless lots of other operational issues complicate the decisions.
     
    Jimc, Jan 30, 2015
    #4
    Wenlock likes this.
  5. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2009
    Messages:
    22,726
    Likes Received:
    22,881
    Location:
    1016
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The quality of pump can make a difference. Down south we are blessed with Bells and Two Tones who unfailingly deliver water at fast flow rates. Have experienced water stops with these folk that are not much longer than they used to be. By contrast there have been times in the north west when possibly a stirrup pump might have been quicker. Sorry - thread drift.
     
    Big Al, Jan 30, 2015
    #5
    oddsocks and Wenlock like this.
  6. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2006
    Messages:
    8,389
    Likes Received:
    5,374
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Freelance photo - journalist
    Location:
    Southport
    When 4771 Green Arrow ran short of water approaching Garsdale the subsequent inquiry revealed that Railtrack / Network rail works on 72 miles per tender fill of water (presumably of 4000 gallon capacity) but - in response to water capacity of 60163 - 60163's tender was re-designed to carry more water albeit at the expense of coal capacity although I am unaware of the actual current coal / water capacities.

    The other factor "learned" from the Green Arrow incident was that the 72 mile figure can vary according to such factors as slipping, driver handling, load factors etc. A good example of this in practice was the Haymarket driver skills when ECML services were diverted via the Waverley route during the 1948 floods and still managed to maintain non-stop working despite the lack of water troughs on the diversion route.
     
    Fred Kerr, Jan 30, 2015
    #6
  7. 46223

    46223 Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2011
    Messages:
    6,717
    Likes Received:
    6,384
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Lancs
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    In his book 'Ace Enginemen', Norman McKillop recalls Gateshead driver Bill Hogarth receiving a letter from his superintendent thanking him for working an A4 hauling 14 bogies from Grantham to Newcastle without taking water, describing it as 'a good performance'.
     
    46223, Jan 30, 2015
    #7
  8. Steamage

    Steamage Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    4,752
    Likes Received:
    1,129
    Location:
    Oxford
    Search the archives for Bob Meanley's account of The Bristolian non-stop run in 2010. IIRC, continuous running at moderate and high speeds, and therefore with few periods of sustained acceleration, meant that water consumption was significantly lower (about half?) than a normal rail-tour. Of course, they couldn't be sure of such a good path, so had to carry enough for a "normal" run, just in case.
     
    Steamage, Jan 30, 2015
    #8
  9. 5944

    5944 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2006
    Messages:
    8,972
    Likes Received:
    9,478
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Train Maintainer for GTR at Hornsey
    Location:
    Letchworth
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    There was a run over the S&C northbound a few years ago with 45407 that missed out the water stop at Appleby as the crew reckoned there was enough water to get them to Carlisle. I can't remember where the previous water stop was, but I seem to recall it was in the region of 110 miles without water, and it was with a decent load, at least 10 coaches. I'll try and find the details on Six Bells Junction.

    Edit - may have been October 2000. Took water at Blackburn, then ran non-stop to Carlisle, around 100 miles. Running time was just under 3 hours.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2015
    5944, Jan 30, 2015
    #9
  10. John Stewart

    John Stewart Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2011
    Messages:
    4,206
    Likes Received:
    2,072
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Hilton, Derby
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The Midland Railway used to run daily from the troughs south of Trent to Liverpool, some 113 miles I believe.
     
    John Stewart, Jan 30, 2015
    #10
  11. Yorkshire Exile

    Yorkshire Exile Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2007
    Messages:
    331
    Likes Received:
    82
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Codger and retired trustee of A1SLT
    Location:
    Jersey
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    From top up in Southall Tornado regularly arrived in the DGL at Grantham with 1000 to 1500 gallons left in tender of 6250 gallons capacity. Fastest top up enroute that I experienced was 3.5 minutes courtesy Bells and Two Tones and a quick acting support crew.
     
    Yorkshire Exile, Jan 30, 2015
    #11
  12. John Petley

    John Petley Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2007
    Messages:
    2,955
    Likes Received:
    2,538
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Researcher/writer and composer of classical music
    Location:
    Between LBSCR 221 and LBSCR 227
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I read somewhere that in the 1930s, there was a Waterloo-Bournemouth non-stop worked by a Schools class - 108 miles without a stop for water and not the largest of tenders either. Others may know more about this.
     
    John Petley, Jan 31, 2015
    #12
  13. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2013
    Messages:
    1,392
    Likes Received:
    1,639
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    ynysddu south wales
    i am rather surprised that no one has mentioned the currently topical case of Bulleid Pacific 'Winston Churchill' hauling the funeral train from waterloo to handborough in january 1965 - equivalent to a non stop run to salisbury, and water was a concern (water wasnt taken until the loco got to oxford depot around 4pm -some 3 hours after the loco must have left nine elms). this has been described by jim lester fireman on that special memorable day.

    cheers,
    julian
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2015
    jma1009, Feb 1, 2015
    #13
  14. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,910
    Likes Received:
    1,387
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Birmingham
    I seem to recall on the Cheltenham Flyer, although 5043 had the Water GUV in the train, given the non stop runs, much of which at decent speed, it used less than the tender's capacity without the GUV's additional supply.

    Water pressure can make a big difference, on a couple of recent tours the pressure from the Hydrant on Crewe plat 12 has been naff.
     
    david1984, Feb 5, 2015
    #14
  15. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2009
    Messages:
    22,726
    Likes Received:
    22,881
    Location:
    1016
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    My guess is that the best example of water use will be with 5043 where, as I understand it, there is usually more than enough - 7000 gallons? -when the GUV is part of the mix and so that must allow for a fairly definitive assessment of what this loco's water consumption is on average. But it would be interesting to know which type of loco, in theory, is the most economical with water on average.
     
    Big Al, Feb 7, 2015
    #15
  16. John Stewart

    John Stewart Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2011
    Messages:
    4,206
    Likes Received:
    2,072
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Hilton, Derby
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I think that we would need to restore Midland Railway 118 to working order. These locomotives were reputed to be able to run on 20-21lb of coal to the mile on light trains. I don't have any water consumption figures as coal consumption was always more important to the railway's finances but I suspect that their original 4,000 gallon tenders would take them 200 miles or so.
     
    John Stewart, Feb 7, 2015
    #16
  17. bristolian

    bristolian Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2005
    Messages:
    535
    Likes Received:
    297
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Huntingdon. Formerly from Bristol.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Evening folks,

    Loosely on subject, apparently the crew of 15XX No. 1501 had to drop the fire at Swithland today, due to low water...

    Very Best Wishes,
    Bob.
     
    bristolian, Feb 7, 2015
    #17
  18. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2014
    Messages:
    15,552
    Likes Received:
    11,961
    Location:
    Wnxx
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Oh dear any more info forthcoming?
     
    Matt37401, Feb 7, 2015
    #18
  19. richards

    richards Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2008
    Messages:
    4,714
    Likes Received:
    2,099
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    richards, Feb 10, 2015
    #19

Share This Page