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Flying Scotsman

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by 73129, Aug 24, 2010.

  1. buseng

    buseng Part of the furniture

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    Also on the front cover of SR there is a remark, "Scotsman, Now it's 2015 at the earliest - if at all!​"
     
  2. williamfj2

    williamfj2 Member

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    Sensationalist claptrap from Steam Beano, whatever next? Next thing you'll be telling me that Heritage Beano is at it too!
     
  3. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Oh come on - really?

    I do have to ask in whose interests is it that Steam Railway continuously and (mercilessly it seems) slate, beat down and otherwise sensationalise the Scotsman overhaul to within an inch of its life...
     
  4. Coldgunner

    Coldgunner New Member

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    I hope that for any future events, SR is not invited by the NRM...
     
  5. ADB968008

    ADB968008 Guest

  6. fentmar

    fentmar New Member

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    I speak for many others but the position regarding Scotsman is disgusting. 1) for the previous owners to have butchered the engine was impalpable and for the state royal scot Scotsman and bittern (prior to intervention) were in Kensington and ward et al deserve bullets. In the case of royal scot i would like to disproved that tax payer money did not line the wrong pockets. But here's the thing; Scotsman had 2 million spent on it before the nrm realised the cylinders were the wrong size , the frames were cracked and the cylinders were misaligned. On top they have done lite to restore the engine to a "pure" single chimney form. It's a disgrace. Can you blame the press for sensationalising it? No. The waste of public money jeopardises the whole movement
     
  7. goldfish

    goldfish Resident of Nat Pres

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    This subject really brings out the loonies… "Deserve bullets"? "Jeopardises whole movement"? Silly boy.

    Simon
     
  8. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

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    I hope you have a good lawyer, as that looks very like a death threat to me.

    Keith
     
  9. fish7373

    fish7373 Member

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    Bad saying all this consider the NRM put the 19 1/2 cylinder in not Southall FISH7373 81C FITTER
     
  10. fentmar

    fentmar New Member

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    I'm sorry bullets is extreme and it was not meant literally. I don't think the story of the scot or Scotsman put the movement at all in a good light and when it comes to the movement potentially getting lottery allocations you have to ask how much damage has been done?
     
  11. pete2hogs

    pete2hogs Member

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    The Scotsman is only one engine. It's only connection with the original (1920's-30's Flying Scotsman) is the name it carries. Ditto Royal Scot. It is the press that obsess about these two engines because they are about the only steam engine names they can recognise.

    Certainly there has been a lot of incompetence with the A3 (as I shall call it), mainly because it seems none of the project engineers (including at the NRM) have done any research at all into the problems the A3's, grand engines though they were, always presented in maintenance. It would for example be standard practice at Doncaster to assess the frames as soon as the loco was stripped, as they almost always had cracks and would be replaced from the pool of spare new or repaired frames. Which is not a problem if you are maintaining a large fleet of the beasts, but does not bode well for a one-off's long term future, unless you are going to make it even more of a replica than it already is.

    And no, I'm not advocating turning it back into a representation of itself in 1930 - the only remotely authentic thing that could be done with it is to put it into its last BR condition, and accept that it has the wrong tender - which at least doesn't look too bad from a distance, as it ran with an A4 type tender in its last few years on BR.
     
  12. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    Oh how people on forums love throwing around their accusations of incompetence and malice...

    I'm yet to be convinced that the bored out cylinders on Flying Scotsman were outside the normal range that would have been used in service, which leaves only the higher boiler pressure as being dubious, and that depends in practice on what boiler pressures they actually ran on the locomotive for how long, what instructions were given to drivers and all the rest of it. I'm quite sure it would have been possible to hammer the life out of the loco without the extra boiler pressure, and in my ignorance also suspect that having an extra reserve of boiler pressure would not have made hammering the loco compulsory, just presented the possibility.

    I don't know that previous maintainers are really guilty of anything more than a determination to keep a life expired steam locomotive running on the mainline for another few years. I suspect the choices they saw before them didn't present to them as they appear to us with hindsight. I'm sure the NRM people don't need telling that a determination to steam xxx at all costs may not be consistent with its overall health as an artifact in the long term, but maybe its an object lesson to the rest of us, and especially the "steam it at all costs" brigade.
     
  13. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    'Remotely authentic', interesting idea. Seeing as the condition that it ran in for the longest period in its working life was post preservation (1963 to the Marchington overhaul), would that not be the most authentic condition for it to be restored to?
     
  14. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Quite, accusations of incompetence are seriously libellous; if the accused has any sort of certificate or qualification stating that they are competent, then no matter how poor a job they may make of something, they are still competent.
     
  15. polmadie

    polmadie Well-Known Member

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    A bit of "paper" does not mean you are up to the job you have studied for. It just says that you can absorb information then put it down on paper for exam purposes.
     
  16. ADB968008

    ADB968008 Guest

    True, but it is also an indication of what is the that head, that could be useful to the job... in otherwords... if your learned it, there's a good chance youve remembered it, and the piece of paper show you did it. Otherwise its an Honesty thing that you trust the person your speaking to knows what he's talking about.
    Granted it's a risk.. but the paper is a risk mitigator... no paper.. well unless you know the bloke or his referee its a higher risk.
     
  17. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    I am not saying that it does. What it does do is certify that someone is competent, and thus anyone calling them incompetent had better have some 100% proof evidence that it is otherwise.
     
  18. fentmar

    fentmar New Member

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    Clearly my post was Ott and out of line. I regret some of the language. However it stemmed from deep regret of what the abortive restorations of 6100 and 4472 do for the movement.
    The former had c700k- 1m spent on it and it was so off beat it was a laughing stock. 4 years on it still is nowhere near running and it's owners were forced to mortgage and then sell it.

    4472 has had as much money spent as it cost to build tornado and yet is seriously defective and if you believe what you read fundamental checks on frames (scans for cracks) and cylinder alignment did not happen.

    If I were the lottery fund would I on reading the 2 horror stories allocate money to restore another engine?...I'd be questioning the ability of the movement to deliver projects, and give the public value for money (I.e get the engine running). That is the point of my post and as an enthusiast I feel let down that at least 2m of public money has resulted in 2 engines needing to be pulled apart and started again.

    If the lottery fund were asked for money to repair duchess of Hamilton would they give it on the punt that it got finished properly...... Would they find trust in the movement in general? In the evidence of this no.

    The words bullet and reference to money spent were wrong and malicious and I apologise. But competence is an appropriate word and on the balance of these 2 projects I don't think much has been displayed.

    As for my engineering skills I built a 5 inch kit tank engine. Rather a struggle for I have a poor mind engineering mind but I got some excellent help and discarded the much bad advice I got. I hoped to buy and restore a big engine one day (with a contractor repairing) but it wont surprise people I have been put off.

    As for the way forward I'd say the nrm needs to outsource its engineering of the mainline fleet. One or two departments really seem to run the main line well and indeed Tom tighe and co have operated 2 nrm engines effectively. Seems a much lower risk than trying to build your own expertise albeit you would have a degree of moral hazard if you went down this route.

    I apologise again that my post went too far
     
  19. Bulleid Pacific

    Bulleid Pacific Part of the furniture

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    I think it is fairly safe to say that the Heritage Lottery will look at each case upon its individual merits before parting with cash, not to mention the requirement for match-funding. Whilst undeniably bad for PR, it is easy to generalise that the current problems will have ramifications for the movement in general, but one must always remember that the movment consists of a diverse variety of organisations, each with their own needs, agendas and reasons for being. What happens in one part of the sector therefore does not necessarily have to spoil the party for everyone else; as long as there's a well thought-out plan and watertight case behind requests for funding, then long may it continue. This is my own opinion, and does not reflect those held by any of the heritage organisations I'm associated with.
     
  20. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

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    Just one word - Bahamas


    Keith
     

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