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Edward Thompson: Wartime C.M.E. Discussion

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by S.A.C. Martin, May 2, 2012.

  1. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    No need to defend yourself. I'd gathered your course at Isis Polytechnic wasn't Home Economics. :)
     
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  2. Allegheny

    Allegheny Member

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  3. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Just wanted to say a big thank you to everyone who has taken part in the discussion this year, bought the book or added to the Thompson story.

    I think we are now at the stage where we’ve had a good run on this thread - ten years worth of debate and research! - and it’s now time to let it lie for the time being.

    I’m proud of the fact that we’ve covered so much ground in this thread. From where we started in 2012 to ending 2022 with the book out, reviewed (mostly well!) and finally putting to rest so many of the myths around Thompson’s life.

    So on that note, Merry Christmas one and all.

    Thank you for taking part in the longest online debate on railway matters to date!
     
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  4. Sheffield

    Sheffield New Member

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    And thank you, Sir, for making it possible.
     
  5. Richard Roper

    Richard Roper Well-Known Member

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    Happy Christmas Simon - And to everyone on Nat Pres!

    Richard.
     
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  6. D6332found

    D6332found Member

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    Looking at the mongrel Pacific V2/A2, has any wise sage ever calculated what boiler pressure they would have needed to be adequately boilered?
     
  7. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    They were adequately boilered.
     
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  8. D6332found

    D6332found Member

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    I don't think that's correct, see lner info and first hand accounts, however they weren't so bad as Great Northern, which was kept as a spare at the end of a station. It may be this reputation arose as they became wore out, leaked and lost boiler pressure.
     
  9. Miff

    Miff Part of the furniture Friend

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    Clearly you haven’t read Simon’s book yet :) , or caught up with this thread since 2019.
     
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  10. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    The claims they were "under boilered" are, putting it bluntly, wrong.

    The V2 boiler they had was pressed to 225lb, 5lb higher than the V2s were and 5lb higher than the Gresley A3s. They had the klychap double chimney from new.

    I have found no first hand evidence that they suffered from being "under boilered". They were not shy of steam with the setup they had.

    It was a pilot engine once whilst it was being checked for its driving wheels potentially having shifted on the axles.

    I think it exists only in the heads of the apocryphal storytellers, to be honest! All steam locomotives when they get run down might lose performance but all of the LNER Pacifics had excellent boilers which could raise steam well and, perhaps more importantly, keep making steam efficiently.
     
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  11. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    When worn they may use more steam than when fresh out of works but steam locos don't leak significantly and don't lose boiler pressure. As for being kept as a spare at the end of the station, 60113 was always a Doncaster loco and it was the practice to keep an A1 pacific as a standing pilot at Doncaster, ready to take over from any ailing loco at any time. As Doncaster only usually had about 6 A1's on its books, it stands to reason that it would spend a lot of time on this duty for a significant part of its life.

    When spotting at Doncaster it was always a bit annoying that you could see the loco in the sidings at the south end of the station but you couldn't get its number because of the angle and distance away. The only consolation was that you knew that you would almost certainly have already crossed it off in your combined volume.
     
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  12. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    It pleases me Steve that you put 60113 in the A1 category :)

    One of the things which has always puzzled me are the references from some quarters that, where they speak positively of Great Northern, they refer it to being just another of the Peppercorn A1s - quite an accolade, but the Thompson A1 strictly speaking is the post-war A4 Pacific development. It does seem to indicate that it was thought of as being as capable as a Peppercorn A1.
     
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  13. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Well, if Ian Allan lumped them all together, who am I to disagree?:)
     
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  14. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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  15. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    So, we have new things to talk about.

    Last year, Tom James very kindly let me know of a very important bit of Edward Thompson’s history coming up for sale at the Bluebell Railway and held onto it for me.

    I’ve been studying it for a little while now and cross referencing it with other sources.

    And, frankly, I’m a bit bemused because I think I was sort of “right” in my book on Thompson that the D49 rebuild wasn’t originally intended to be a prototype for a standard class…but this document has a few things in that suggest Thompson had changed his mind by its publication and now I need to correct the record somewhat.

    IMG_3151.jpeg

    So here is the document in question, which outlines the plan for the standardisation plan (and yes, when I go to update the Thompson book there are things from this document that will need to be mentioned.

    IMG_3147.jpeg

    At the point of publication, Great Northern does not exist yet but the design is virtually complete (note the small smoke deflectors which didn’t make it, and a streamlined non corridor tender) the Thompson L1 has not been finalised (the photograph is an edited Gresley V3 photograph).

    IMG_3146.jpeg

    So. Diagram No.4. The erstwhile “D Class”.

    IMG_3149.jpeg

    I don’t think it’s an unreasonable question to ask: what is it exactly?

    It looks like a GCR J11 rearranged, including the GCR belpaire boiler, but the frames and running plate echo the D49 rebuild and the GER D15s/D16s. It’s pressed to 200lbs.

    The large cab is very GER style for the side sheets but the front spectacles have shades of GCR and NER style over the belpaire firebox.

    The tender appears to be a variation on the Gresley V4’s tender, including the unusual wheel spacing.


    IMG_3153.jpeg

    So what of the original D49s? Well, this document contradicts the board minutes and the locomotive committee minutes and states the D49s were to be rebuilt to D class spec. Boiler pressure here is 225lb, however…!


    IMG_3155.jpeg

    This seems to confirm the mystery at last: Thompson had in mind a new standard 4-4-0 that was lighter, replacing the whole stud of older D class engines.

    IMG_3157.jpeg

    So, what does that ultimately mean for The Morpeth?
    • It wasn’t initially a prototype for a new 4-4-0
    • It definitely became a template for future planned D49 rebuilds, which were definitely not “cancelled” so much as “parked indefinitely”
    • Thompson’s team had been working on a new 4-4-0 that seemed to share some standard parts with the GCR J11/3s being built.
    • This final design never saw the light of day for a variety of reasons.
    Another reason to update the Thompson book! I hope this was of interest.

    This will be included in my slides at the Hitchin RCTS lecture in a few weeks time.
     
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  16. bluetrain

    bluetrain Well-Known Member

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    Interesting. I'd not previously heard of this apparent Thompson design for a mid-sized 4-4-0, rather smaller than the D49 "The Morpeth" rebuild that eventually materialized. As you suggest, it appears to have the standard J11 boiler. Compared with the ex-GCR 4-4-0 types, the boiler barrel looks to be the same as for the D9, but with the shorter grate of the D5 & D6.

    It was presumably one of those many designs that a CME pondered for a while, but faded in favour of alternative options.

    I notice that the K1 2-6-0 is missing from the designs shown on the chart above. Was it on shown on another page, or had it yet to be conceived? Given that later versions of Thompson's standard range had both the B1 4-6-0 and K1 2-6-0 for general purpose duties, would these two classes have covered all the longer-distance secondary passenger duties, without the need for a mid-power 4-4-0 in addition?

    According to RCTS, Thompson had authority to rebuild 4 further D49s in addition to "The Morpeth", but did not proceed. Maybe that was because there were higher priorities, or maybe Thompson himself had cooled on that plan?
     
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  17. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    it could simply be cost / benefit analysis at play. "The Morpeth" would be costed and then any benefits accruing would be costed to see if it was worth the expenditure; if no immediate benefit could be shown the scheme would be dropped.
    Consider Peter Townend whose trials of Kychap blast pipes and Double chimney gave savings in both coal and water consumption; the savings made justified the costs of implementing the changes.
     
  18. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    The K1 is missing in its enteriety, which suggests to me given the dates that the K1/1 had not been selected yet as a standard class (note that K5 is also missing).

    RCTS’s statement for further D49 rebuilds isn’t backed up by the board minutes, but a discussion of further potential rebuilds is in the locomotive committee minutes.

    I think you are likely correct that Thompson envisaged the B and K classes doing the majority of the work - when you look at this document, the obvious stand out point is that Thompson and the LNER wanted 1000-1500 B1s to cover the work of around 3000 pre grouping locomotives. Huge investment in the locomotive stock.
     
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  19. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    By the end of WW2 were there any roles that needed a D49 rather than a B1?
     
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  20. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    A fair question and my answer to that would be "no", not in my view.
     
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