If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Current and Proposed New-Builds

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by aron33, Aug 15, 2017.

  1. Cosmo Bonsor

    Cosmo Bonsor Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2014
    Messages:
    146
    Likes Received:
    328
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Ross has said most of what I would have done and saved my one fnigered tiepin.

    I would add that often people say this or that aspect of railway work is really skilled eg boiler work or coach building. There are some aspects that are but mostly any reasonably competent and experienced person can do the work. For example I did all aspects of boiler work bar plate bending and welding, it’s really not that difficult.

    As far as coaches go, I don’t think much if any is beyond what I learnt in my C&G Joinery qualification. I never made a scarf joint but in this case GIYF.

    I think any competent joiner is easily capable of carriage building.

    What is more important is the now often unique or archaic knowledge of the way things were done.

    As has been said it might even be something simple such as the names for things. My OCD gets triggered when people use a technicial term wrongly but I am usually to polite to correct them.

    Other heritage activities have the same knowledge problem eg bodybuilding but it is a solvable problem.

    I have thought for a long time that coaches lend themselves to new-build because there are dozens of identical components that can be made in volume by CNC processes and assembled by my hypothetical joiner.
    It is true however that decent timber is getting harder to source, the bottom side (rail to a joiner) in a 60’ coach was 2 pieces of timber with a scarf joint but now 3 get used. It is interesting to see that in a Bulleid coach the bottom side timber is smaller and the stiles are fitted to a steel socket/bracket rather than relying solely on a mortice and tenon joint. I wonder if good timber was getting scarce when they were designed?

    I would be interested to know if engineered timber is capable of the long service life and heavy use needed in a railway vehicle.
     
    ross, 35B and jnc like this.
  2. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2006
    Messages:
    10,565
    Likes Received:
    7,399
    Occupation:
    Gentleman of leisure, nowadays
    Location:
    Near Leeds
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    A new coach, even if built to an existing design, has no grandfather rights. It thus needs to comply with the latest requirements, especially with regard to the Rail Vehicle Accessibility Regulations. Not too onerous for heritage railway operation but still necessary. One obvious one is the need to paint doors in contrasting colours.
     
    jnc, Bluenosejohn and ross like this.
  3. RLinkinS

    RLinkinS Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2008
    Messages:
    666
    Likes Received:
    694
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Timber was in short supply after WW2.
    In the early 1950s my Father built his workshop from concrete blocks because of the shortage of timber.

    Which railway built the first all steel coaches?


    Sent from my SM-A105FN using Tapatalk
     
  4. ross

    ross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    Messages:
    892
    Likes Received:
    2,205
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Titfield
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Not being contentious, but as there would be no point building pretty carriages to have to paint them ugly.....would that apply if one were building new bodywork on an older chassis? I'm not sure whether there's DMU trailer cars out there that might work, or parcels van chassis. Would an imported Polish carriage chassis be viable?
     
  5. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    9,775
    Likes Received:
    15,840
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheltenham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    How does that square with some of the narrow gauge new builds from the L&B and FfR/WHR?
     
    ross likes this.
  6. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2018
    Messages:
    3,307
    Likes Received:
    6,586
    Location:
    Here, there, everywhere
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I’d also suggest with new builds the ability to make them for example wheelchair accessible, whereas, if you had a unique historic vehicle there is the question about preserving the integrity of the object. So, to follow on from @JohnElliott you might have a rake of carriages but none are accessible so you might decide to new build an accessible vehicle.

    Certainly I think a lot of the narrow gauge new builds have had access in mind with a lot of design choices.

    New builds also might allow for solutions to not have the toilets draining onto the track.

    I think that as with locos there will be new builds which are high days and holiday new builds and then there are ones that will form the core of a working fleet.

    Where I volunteered we had I estimate about 35 coaches and was a full time job doing the ‘boring stuff’ underneath.

    Is that true? The narrow gauge new builds of heritage vehicles don’t seem to ie https://www.festipedia.org.uk/wiki/Carriage_21
     
  7. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2006
    Messages:
    10,565
    Likes Received:
    7,399
    Occupation:
    Gentleman of leisure, nowadays
    Location:
    Near Leeds
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    You mean like this? Wide doors in a contrasting colour.
    [​IMG]
     
    2392 and Bluenosejohn like this.
  8. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    9,775
    Likes Received:
    15,840
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheltenham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    More like the one posted by @Monkey Magic above, and some of the L&B ones, built brand new including frames/bogies etc. to original designs, with narrow doors in the same livery as the body work.
     
  9. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2006
    Messages:
    10,565
    Likes Received:
    7,399
    Occupation:
    Gentleman of leisure, nowadays
    Location:
    Near Leeds
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I can't immediately answer this. It certainly used to be the case but I've a feeling that the ORR can now exempt in such cases.
     
    ross likes this.
  10. ross

    ross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    Messages:
    892
    Likes Received:
    2,205
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Titfield
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The logic that if one were building new to a much older design, then modifications allowing for accessibility, lavatories, buffet/bar whatever could well tip the balance in favour of a new-build proposition. One could also include such features as central locking, doors-latched indicators, tannoy, all of which might become mandatory. The paintwork issue might well be the deal-breaker though.
     
  11. ross

    ross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    Messages:
    892
    Likes Received:
    2,205
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Titfield
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Didn't you have to scarf a piece into a damaged window cill? It is certainly in the current C&G level 2.

    It is certainly true that obtaining 2off 30' long 4"x 4" is going to be a challenge. For my money, a 30' long comb jointed or laminated section would be easy. You could order the full 60' length, with mortices routed in, and get it delivered to site June 1st with just a phone call. It all depends what one is prepared to compromise on.
    The old builders truism of "Good-Quick-Cheap, pick any two" is applicable
     
    Wenlock likes this.
  12. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    21,805
    Likes Received:
    41,430
    Location:
    215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    It is possible to convert historic carriages for better accessibility (e.g. wheelchairs). Three examples:

    https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pic2/lcdr/51.html - started as a brake carriage, which gives the double doors to provide a wide enough opening. The brake equipment has been removed along with a partition to create a saloon which can be entered through the double doors. As I recall, there are four LCDR brakes of that type in preservation, so the conversion was considered less destructive than had perhaps similar been done to a unique type of vehicle.

    https://iwsteamrailway.co.uk/heritage/our-rolling-stock/carriages-wagons/bogie-carriages/ scroll down for 2403 - a more interesting example, since it didn't start as a brake coach. Originally it was (I believe) 48' long, but put on a replacement 50' under frame; there is a subtle addition of two feet of extra length which gives space to the create a double door. You have to look hard to see it.

    https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/car54.html - a Pullman example, again starting with a brake vehicle.

    On the question of contrasting paintwork for doors on carriages. I'm not an equalities act specialist, though I have had some connection with accessibility in an entirely different field. However, my take is that the requirement is reasonable adjustment so as not to make use of a service more difficult for a disabled user. For someone with visual impairment, strongly contrasting doors will make it easier to identify the doors particularly on an unmanned station where no other assistance is available. However, on a heritage railway, there will always be platform staff available, and I think you could make a reasoned argument that strong contrast paint schemes aren't required because there will always be assistance available for anyone struggling to identify where the doors are. The question is to understand the rationale for a particular requirement and then see if you can meet it another way so as not to disadvantage those who benefit from the original requirement - IMHO. So the impact of not having high-contrast colour scheme for doors can be mitigated by having platform staff to assist those with visual impairment.

    I am not a lawyer.

    Tom
     
    BrightonBaltic, Nick C, ghost and 4 others like this.
  13. Phill S

    Phill S New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2015
    Messages:
    106
    Likes Received:
    45
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    In the tramway world, there is some money in a fund to recreate a Manchester standard bogie tram. This was a bequest given to Crich some years ago. As far as I know, this expected to be grandfathered in as per Tornado, although one idea is to make it an accessible tram. Aside from that, surely latest requirements would include structural strength and crash/fire worthiness far beyond that achievable with wood?
     
  14. estwdjhn

    estwdjhn Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2013
    Messages:
    280
    Likes Received:
    451
    Occupation:
    Boilermaker
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Some comments a while back in this thread about the fact that the supply of Victorian wooden coach bodies rather exceeds the supply of suitable wagon chassis on which to place them.

    I've been thinking about this a bit, and having been looking at putting together a generic chassis design which could be fairly easily "bulk built" with small length adjustments to suit most Victorian coach bodies. The intention would be to use second hand wheelsets, axleboxes, draw gear, but on a new purpose designed steel underframe.

    Hopefully this could be combined with a fairly 1 size fits all design assessment for these new chassis, making them reasonably affordable.

    I got involved in all this because I said I'd do the drawings for a 1 off bespoke chassis for a particular victorian coach body, but I'm rather hoping I'll end up with a standaised design which will save future groups a great deal of work.

    Each underframe will still consume a set of wheelsets/axleboxes etc - but at least they will be able to come from a demic wagon of almost any type, rather than the usual problem of needing to find a chassis in decent condition with the correct overall length, wheelbase, vacuum fitted etc...
     
  15. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2006
    Messages:
    10,565
    Likes Received:
    7,399
    Occupation:
    Gentleman of leisure, nowadays
    Location:
    Near Leeds
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Have you got a fag packet cost for one, yet?
     
  16. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    21,805
    Likes Received:
    41,430
    Location:
    215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Up to a point, though my understanding is that, given their capacity, a railway could easily go ten years between routine (as opposed to incident-based) ORR inspection. That is plenty of time for a previously well-managed situation to decline (or indeed the reverse).

    Bear in mind that with the incident at the South Devon, there was nothing as far as I am aware that had raised alarm bells prior to the incident in question, even though clearly the situation that was discovered cannot have arisen overnight. Hence my concern about the risk that maintenance - as opposed to restoration - can become a Cinderella affair.

    Tom
     
  17. Paulthehitch

    Paulthehitch Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2020
    Messages:
    731
    Likes Received:
    853
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Hayling Island
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I am sure "the case of the missing khasi floor" has not only made places wake up but has also reminded the O.R.R. of the need to ensure records are kept properly.
     
    andrewshimmin likes this.
  18. RLinkinS

    RLinkinS Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2008
    Messages:
    666
    Likes Received:
    694
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Do any railways carry out internal inspections? In the industry I worked in there were company employed inspectors who were on site much more frequently than the regulators

    Sent from my SM-A105FN using Tapatalk
     
    Paulthehitch likes this.
  19. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    9,775
    Likes Received:
    15,840
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheltenham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Really? I question this only because it is known that the ORR are very much "doing the rounds" in terms of inspecting as many railways as possible, I thought they've managed most of the bigger railways over the last year or two and were beginning to look at the smaller concerns. Despite the fact that they were very satisfied on their visit to the GWSR, they still had time to come back for a follow up visit 6 months later to check that we were addressing the things that they'd highlighted. That doesn't make it feel like a once every 10 years event to me.
     
    BrightonBaltic and Paulthehitch like this.
  20. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    21,805
    Likes Received:
    41,430
    Location:
    215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I might be wrong, but I seem to recall an article in one of the periodicals last year saying they had a capacity to do about 20 inspections per year, but that includes investigations of specific incidents and where a railway has a high risk profile, of which as I recall would be about half those. That leaves ten inspections per year as a routine, spread across about a hundred railways. (In that context, I would count an inspection followed by a six-month later check up as broadly being a single inspection).

    I might be wrong, I was just working through the numbers I recall. But even if it is every five years, that is time for things to change quite a bit.

    Tom
     

Share This Page