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Cathedral's Express 30th September

Discussion in 'What's Going On' started by No.7, Sep 16, 2011.

  1. mattjuler

    mattjuler New Member

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    I have been in contact with Steam Dreams a fair amount over the last couple of months as we were booked on this tour, and the MD had the decency to call me yesterday to reply to a fairly strongly worded email asking what was actually happening as I'd discovered that DONZ was going to be at the NYMR.

    The initial plan directly after the cancellation of the previous midweek tour was to move the trip to Sunday 2nd October 2011. However after discussion with Network Rail it was agreed that the tour could continue on the Friday (what was not published at this point was that there was no suitable path for an A4 out of Kings Cross on a weekday, so the tour was going to be either Tornado or Britannia).

    This was still the plan up until the unfortunate fire caused by Sir Lamiel. I don't wish to go into further details as I spoke with the MD of Steam Dreams in confidence, but I don't blame them for the late cancellation.

    What does still aggravate me is that I believe it has been known since late August that there was no path for an A4 out of Kings Cross on a weekday but SD continued to advertise the tour as hauled by DONZ. I believe that as the paying public (almost £500 for two in Pullman dining), we should be kept fully up to date on what is happening on an ongoing basis. Steam Dreams seem to be very good at sending out publicity information, but no news on updates to tours.

    Unfortunately there is no table for 2 capacity on the RTC White Rose this weekend, so it looks like we'll not be getting an A4 up to York for some time, something that has really annoyed my completely non-enthusiast fiancee who bought this trip for me as a 30th birthday present. I'm also very apprehensive about re-booking on the November midweek tour as I can see the whole same episode happening again.
     
  2. leander

    leander Member

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    71000 is at Nene Valley,i know it would involve DB as the operator but even if steam came on at peterborough it would have save the trip if arrangements could have been made.
     
  3. spindizzy

    spindizzy Member

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    How could they possibly path a Britannia but not an A4?
     
  4. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    I'm a tad bemused by the statement that there was no suitable path for an A4 but there would have been for an A1 or a Britannia. Both A4s and A1s are Class 8 so I would have thought pathing would be nigh on identical and a Brit is a Class 7 so surely more difficult to path that a Class 8. Plus of course the A1 would not be available as it's WCRC operated tour. Finally I thought the ban on mid week steam out of KGX was a blanket one and not just A4s.
     
  5. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

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  6. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Gauging issues? What gauging issues? 4492 is out of KGX this coming Saturday and I doubt it will grow in size by the 30th.
     
  7. mattjuler

    mattjuler New Member

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    I can only pass on what I was told by Steam Dreams, but A4s are restricted to 40mph running on the Slow lines due to gauging issues, this restriction does not affect the A1 or Brit. The tour was also changed to DBS from WCRC in anticipation of using the A1.
     
  8. leander

    leander Member

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    I think you will find 71000 is class 8
     
  9. spindizzy

    spindizzy Member

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    But its not a Brit :)
     
  10. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

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    While steam cannot be 'banned' as such, it's not a good idea to go round upsetting people in high places at the moment, who could certainly make life more difficult for you if they wished to do so, for example to let charters run some services are often 'tweaked' by a minute or so here and there, someone might not be so willing to do that in future if you alienate them now.

    For what it's worth i think charters on particularly the ECML & WCML on weekdays are just plain daft, there's very little space left with the morning and evening peaks as it is, weekend running on these routes is far more sensible and there's a lot more space to do it, Light Engine movements during the week could be done 'out of hours' in paths that would be unacceptable to passenger carrying trains.
     
  11. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    That's a new one. Haven't been blessed with too many runs out of KGX this year but on the 4th of June 4492 was booked 68 minutes from leaving KGX to passing Sandy - this involved slow line running as when I saw her at Arlesey she was on the slow - and 65 minutes on the 9th July - also with slow line running -but 70013 on the 9th April was allowed 74 minutes over the same stretch with the same Stevenage stop so I can't see how an A4 supposedly limited to 40 on the slow can beat a Brit without such a limitation. I'll have to ask my friends within the industry if and when this restriction was placed on the A4s.
     
  12. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Just had a word with a railway industry friend of mine regarding this 40 mph restriction. His reply was "There are certain restrictions imposed for the A4's (and other big steam locomotives) on the Slow Lines but not throughout the whole of the journey. These restrictions normally apply to certain bridges along the route. The restriction relates to the locomotives gauging rather than some dribble I read recently on another forum regarding Heavy Axles Weights (RT 29973/HAW) When the TAN is produced (This is a document produced by Network Rail Train Planning) it gives details where the restrictions apply using bridge structure numbers and mileages. I don't know off the top of my head where these restrictions apply and they are not listed in the Sectional Appendix unlike modern traction."

    Would be interested to find out which locos are speed restricted and where on the southern GN.
     
  13. Steamage

    Steamage Part of the furniture

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    I think the answer, at least in part, is in the first paragraph of the letter from SD posted by No7 this morning:
    It does show just how tight weekday paths are in the current timetable, if running at perhaps 60mph rather than 40 (and the associated braking and acceleration) over a few bridges on a critical stretch of line makes the difference between a train plan working and not working.
     
  14. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    The thing is that this pathing issue reared it's ugly head back in July with the cancellation of 4492's run out of KGX July 21st. So continuing to advertise 4492 for the September 20th trip does seem a bit odd. Also still puzzled how a "restricted" A4 be booked the Stevenage - Huntingdon stretch quicker than an "unrestricted" Britannia and in the same time as the "unrestricted" A1. Can only assume these restrictions have come in to place since 4492's last foray on the GN.
     
  15. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Just been informed by someone who works at the DfT that the pathing issues are southbound into KGX due to restrictions on A4s at points on the slow lines north of Woolmer Green. Didn't say exactly where the restrictions are though.
     
  16. Oakfield

    Oakfield Guest

    This is correct, which is why SD were trying to obtain either 60163 (which is built to a slightly smaller loading gauge than the originals, which is why it can go around Kent when none of the other Ex LNER 'Pacifics' can.) or 70000.

    This is not a good time to start potentially causing or presenting possible weekday problems on the ECML to NR.

    What I still find unacceptable, however, is that SD knew that this tour could not operate on a weekday with 4492 during the latter part of August but the still continued to promote it as such until this week, an act I find both morally unjustifiable and legally dubious.
     
  17. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    I'm still puzzled. Have looked at the times for three runs into KGX this year. 4492/60019, 70000 and 60163. From passing Huntingdon to arriving Stevenage thetimes allowed were : A4 34 mins, A1 33 mins, Britannia 39 mins. As this stretch is supposed to be the bit where an A4 is restricted, it doesn't seem to affect things much.
     
  18. Oakfield

    Oakfield Guest

    At a weekend there is a path that allows use of the up main at the critical points.
     
  19. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Any idea at which points they can use the fast? 99% of the time I see them they are on the slow.
    Just to muddy the waters a bit more, my DfT source now says the restrictions are on the down slow which has effectively removed a path for an 08.xx departure mid week.
     
  20. No.7

    No.7 Well-Known Member

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    The restrictions on the slow lines on the southern section of the ECML have been in place for a number of years. They only apply to the slow line so if an A4 is pathed on the fast the booked times can be as good as any other loco. The reason is reported to be hammer blow however the technical basis is slightly mysterious. The A1 (as new build) has been given the OK from that perspective. The restriction does not apply to a particular bridge or platform but slow lines Hitchin and Peterborough throughout.
     

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