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Anti-Mark Ones

Discussion in 'Heritage Rolling Stock' started by WesternRegionHampshireman, Nov 7, 2021.

  1. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    You say that like heritage railways, when they started, had a choice; "Dear BR, please may we have some carriages" "Certainly, what sort would you like?".

    The fact of the matter is that Mk1s were cheap and plentiful at the time many railways were starting up. Unless you were a railway that started before the mid-1970s, there really wasn't much left that wasn't chicken sheds. And they cost an absolute bomb to restore compared to your average dilapidated Mk1.

    A well restored Mk1 with original style upholstery, varnished wood veneers, some pretty paintings in the picture frames and string luggage racks can be virtually indistinguishable from the final designs of any of the big four railway companies.

    So whilst I completely agree that pre-1948 stuff is lovely and interesting, think a little more about those of us who slave away over Mk1s trying to make them as nice as possible because we don't have a choice, and because we care.
     
  2. WesternRegionHampshireman

    WesternRegionHampshireman Member

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    I do think about the people that restore Mark Ones, I am thankful everytime I go on a heritage railway that I have a nice comfy carridge to sit in (BR, pre-48, pre-23), it's always a pleasure to look out an actual roll down window or a huge window than those pathetic excuses we have nowadays

    If I have blown this out of proportion, I am sorry, I guess I should have a bit more careful when I start things like this.

    I know Mark Ones were cheaper and easier to buy, I get that most heritage railways needed them, I just think pre-48/23 carriages are much more interesting historically, to ride in and more asthectically pleasing than Mark Ones.
     
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  3. WesternRegionHampshireman

    WesternRegionHampshireman Member

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    1. Yes hatred is a strong word, I suppose what I mean is, is that those three things remind me of the person in question, so makes my skin crawl.

    2. I'm glad you understand my views Alan Kebby, It's seems one of those things that you either conform or your a rebel traitor.
     
  4. mdewell

    mdewell Well-Known Member Friend

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    Many Mk1s have now reached the stage where they require major restoration work which can cost as much as a pre Nationalisation coach to restore. The days when coachs could be bought from the mainline and used on a heritage line with minimal expense are mostly long gone now. Or to put it another way. . . We've had our moneys worth out of them, time to put something back if we want them to continue to survive.

    That's not to say I disagree with anything else you have said - quite the contrary, I love to see, and ride on, the pre-nationalisation stock too.
     
  5. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

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    It's interesting how you have no problem describing MK1s as cheap rubbish and putting forward your hatred of them along with Bulleids and Black 5s, but yet:

    A case of gross hypocrisy methinks...
     
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  6. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Ah, come back @Paulthehitch, all is forgiven ... (Come to think of it, have they ever been seen in the same room together?)

    Tom
     
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  7. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I think that is a looming issue across the heritage railway sector. As a general rule, we have benefitted from using residual life in assets that were disposed of cheaply, but not completely worn out. But just as "second overhaul of Barry loco" suddenly involves a massive firebox repair that wasn't necessary first time round, we are getting to the point that carriages will need more than just routine maintenance, a repaint and some new upholstery. And unlike a loco, you've got five or six of them in every train. I'd suggest that even with Mark 1s, railways that don't have a plan, and a budget, to do a rail-to-roof rebuild of every carriage they own once every thirty years or so is playing with fire.

    Also, straws in the wind: historically some railways with good loco provision have hired locos out to other railways that are struggling, to cover whole seasons or peaks. Increasingly that is happening with carriages. That suggests to me that there are railways that are already struggling to match the level of service they wish to run with their capacity to run it - something long seen with locos but increasingly now with carriages.

    Tom
     
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  8. toplight

    toplight Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you but are you doing anything to help the cause? Coaches don't restore themselves. They need "doers" to turn up and do the restorations, not just talk on forums about it.
     
  9. WesternRegionHampshireman

    WesternRegionHampshireman Member

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    I would, I REALLY would, but I got kicked off two railways, so I physically couldn't, in another life, I would be sawing and hammering, happily building 60/70 vintage carriages a year without a care in the world.

    Guess people like me just aren't lucky. :(
     
  10. 62440

    62440 New Member

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    New build/replicas, anyone?
     
  11. NeilL

    NeilL Well-Known Member

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    CVR carriage shed have been lovingly rebuilding Mk1s for years and doing a cracking job on them. Come and see for yourselves.
     
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  12. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Nat Pres stalwart

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    I must confess my, not altogether serious, thought was, how much would a new build Mk1 cost, especially if railways could get together to pool resources and achieve economies of scale?
     
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  13. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    The question is why?

    The weak points on Mark 1s seem to be corrosion of the ends - easier to fix than build a whole new carriage (including the ends!). The other issue is proper bogie maintenance: I think there is an issue with commonwealth bogies that if the axle boxes bind in the horn guides, essentially you turn the whole bogie, rather than just the wheel set, into unsprung mass.

    Then all the usual maintenance things of trimming, electrics etc, but new build doesn’t get round those issues.

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2021
  14. goldfish

    goldfish Resident of Nat Pres

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    That is a very ‘half empty’ interpretation. Alternatively, having been kicked off one railway, you were fortunate to be accepted somewhere else…

    Have you considered that a factor might be the way you communicate your strongly held but controversial opinions?

    Simon
     
  15. WesternRegionHampshireman

    WesternRegionHampshireman Member

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    Probably.
     
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  16. Paul Grant

    Paul Grant Member

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    I'm sure some of the professional carriage restorers are currently tying themselves up with wire rope laughing at this. 60/ 70 carriages a year would be possible in model scales but a solo person with full size carriages? Not a hope in hell. Wheres the money coming from? Truly a poster that makes Alf Roberts look sensible.
     
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  17. WesternRegionHampshireman

    WesternRegionHampshireman Member

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    Might have been over-dramaitic on the that front.
    This whole thread has been over dramatic.
    I take full responsibility for this, so I do apologise.
     
  18. Southernman99

    Southernman99 Member Friend

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    Ive been slowly composing a reply to this whilst skimming through the dribble.
    I have the pleasure of being paid to maintain and overhaul possibly the widest cross section of post WW1 carriages in the country. 9 Gresleys, 10 Staniers, 20 GWR (Churchward, Collett and Hawksworth) and close to 30 Mk1s.

    Mk1s are the culmination of years of development through all 4 companies. They took the best (debateable) aspects of all 4 companies and came up with a highly succesful range of carriages that form the backbone of the heritage carriage fleet.

    Yes they have their weak points but what design of carriage doesn't? There are good Mk1s and there are bad Mk1s. Get a York or Wolverton built mk1 and they always seem to be in better condition compared to a Swindon or Ashford Mk1. Ends, windows and certain uprights along the body but we are dealing with them when BR didnt have to when they were building them. But find me a design of coach that is "perfect" in every way because I cant and if there was such a thing it would still be around in mass numbers. (wait, :Stop: hang on).

    A mk1 will, keep going and going. It will take the wear and tear of modern day passengers and still come back for more. Where as a wooden bodied coach always feels like an antique, most are but would you run your prized antique car round silverstone everyday and expect it to last? I have my preferred carriages to work on and thats either a Gresley or a Period 3 Stanier, which were one of the main influences of a MK1, as they are very simple to maintain, everything is pretty much accesible where you need it and replacement parts arent all that difficult to manufacture to replace.

    Without the Mk1. Alot of current heritage railways wouldn't be where they are at this time. Mk1s in the 70s were the cheap, easy option to get yourself up and running. The WIBN brigade will say we should have saved more pre 51 coaches but once the Mk1s were brought out. Many hundreds of ageing coaches were scrapped.
     
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  19. WesternRegionHampshireman

    WesternRegionHampshireman Member

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    Yes I know.
    Me and ghost have had a discussion about this.
    I apologise for what I have done.

    I get why Mark 1's were chosen over the older coaches, I wasn't in a good place when I started this thread but I understand now.

    It's just a personal preference of mine that I like the pre-1923/pre-1948 stuff.

    If you like Mk1s, then
    FOR THE LAST TIME, I apologise for offending them and you.
     
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  20. gwalkeriow

    gwalkeriow Well-Known Member

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    Can I like your post more than once? beautifully put.
     
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