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7822 'Foxcote Manor'

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Jeff Albiston, Apr 12, 2011.

  1. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    With regard to the livery of the Crabs. Only 13000-13099 were outshopped in crimson lake. The rest of the class were in black livery from new. Indeed, 13030/31 and 34 were never painted in crimson lake, they were painted in shop black. During 1928, it was decided to repaint the crimson lake liveried locos black.
     
  2. guard_jamie

    guard_jamie Part of the furniture

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    Once again, I reiterate "these things should be assessed on a case by case basis". So in answer to MEJ's questions regarding 61306 and 9466 - both of these locomotives are carrying authentic liveries for other members of the class. To me, that doesn't cross the line. Nor do the minor, hardly visible alterations that you note are already present on Foxcote. Again I say, "don't assume that an opposition to one thing automatically means an opposition to something else."

    I and the others in the 'dislike' camp have already noted our sympathy to the economic prerogative that is involved in this case. It is just, to us, a shame that economic expediency in this case is diametrically opposed to an effective evocation of the past.

    I ask again, does the fact that the general public not mind mean that we can do anything we want? Or is that showing a lack of respect to a public who must have some nostalgic interest in, if not knowledge of, railways of the past.

    Regarding what is done to a loco being the owner's prerogative, well yes, irrefutably. However, in mine, and clearly other's opinion, they have an unwritten duty to the appropriate appearance of their loco. Just as I am sure we would all agree an owner has an unwritten duty not to scrap their loco, despite their being nothing to stop them in law.
     
  3. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    So are you saying that it is OK to mislead the unknowledgable, on the grounds that they won't know they are being misled?


    I note from your signature that you work for a museum. Would you consider it acceptable if your museum started to deliberately change the appearance of its artefacts or change the descriptions (perhaps to make them "more interesting" for connoisseurs or to raise funds) on the grounds that the knowledgable would spot the changes and smile or turn their noses up, whereas the unknowlegable wouldn't know any better?

    One of the purposes of museums - and I would put preserved railways in the same camp - is to educate the unknowledgable, as well as to provide interest to the knowledgable. If we followed your view to its logical conclusion, that educational remit would seem not to matter.

    Tom
     
  4. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    I can visualise the group of GWR C.M.E.s looking down from above and swearing oaths or similar.
     
  5. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    a blue Manor? great..don't forget the double arrow symbols lads...
     
  6. Neil_Scott

    Neil_Scott Part of the furniture

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    Is there anything that you wouldn't do for money?
     
  7. MEJ

    MEJ New Member

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    No, you may note that I have used inverted commas to indicate the words "misled" and "false" as that is what others here are basically accusing the Foxcote Manor Society of, but I do not agree.

    As I have said, most visitors to preserved railways are the general public who don’t know (or probably care) about the exact details or authenticity of the experience they are having. They are after value for money, an exciting and entertaining day out where learning something comes as an added bonus, not a pre-requisite. By having a Manor in BR blue, we are no more deceiving the unknowledgeable than we are by running Hunslet 0.6.0ST "Jessie" on passenger coaches on a preserved line without explaining that its not 100% accurate to the line we have preserved. That argument would mean that by running an industrial loco on mk1's from Llangollen to Carrog it makes an educational statement to the unknowledgeable that the line only ever ran from Llan-Carrog and used such locos and stock!

    As for putting heritage railways in the same camp as museums, this is not altogether correct. Most heritage lines were formed as a way of saving old railways and running heritage trains, NOT as a way of preserving every aspect of the line in question down to the smallest detail. Most try and recreate a heritage image, but I would argue that while preservationists aim to preserve the past and resurrect what has gone, they also have to do this commercially otherwise they will be doomed to fail through lack of funds. All heritage lines have to do this in one way or other. Had the Llangollen Railway initially decided they would only run trains with correct locos, correct stock through authentic stations and infrastructure from Ruabon to Barmouth to interpret the line with 100% historical accuracy, we would not have anything today as this is obviously unworkable!

    My point is that Llangollen is a commercial railway, it has to be, and the majority of paying passengers don’t care what is pulling their train providing it gives them an entertaining experience they are happy to pay for. Like it or not, we are mostly in the entertaining business, where visitors can enjoy a train ride on a line unlike what they can sample on the national network. The fact that those who have worked hard, put their money up front to make it happen and operate the trains can take pride in what they have achieved should allow them some leeway into painting a loco into a livery they choose. As mentioned in my earlier post 7822 will in no way be the first to be painted in a non authentic livery or operated on non authentic stock or in a non authentic line etc etc....!

    Finally, yes I work in a museum- not I may add in the collections side, but in the operations side, running steam locos for the benefit, interpretation and yes, entertainment of the visitor. The objects on display are however on static display and as an example, one has indeed had its appearance altered to attract visitors and aid its interpretation: a South African Garratt incorrectly restored to works livery after repatriation. Perhaps some would deem it artificial, however it does allow our visitors to see an African Garratt in 1930 works livery condition without the need for them to go to Africa (where the sole other classmate survives) or pore over old photographs in an archive! Had this loco not been returned to the UK and restored "spuriously" as some may deem it, it would likely have been cut up long ago...
     
  8. jimmyvonk

    jimmyvonk New Member

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    I'm a big GWR fan, but see no harm at all in Foxy in blue for a period, should look quite nice - AND IT'S ONLY PAINT!!!

    And if you take the picture in black and white you may not even notice! LOL!

    But to all the bleeters & hand wringers moaning - next time you see a loco needing a repaint - why not stick your hand in your pocket and stump up the cash for your chosen colour, I'm sure the owners will agree to a period for it to stay that way - thereby ensuring only the correct schemes (as per your humble opinon) are used - simples!

    (Or you can as usual keep your wallet firmly shut and complain on the internet. LOL!)
     
  9. Thompson1706

    Thompson1706 Well-Known Member

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    Matthew,

    I think you'll find that it's the Bala Lake Railway which is not interpreting the Ruabon- Barmouth line correctly. At least Llangollen is trying to have accurate liveries for ex-main line stock - until now !

    Bob.
     
  10. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    And your evidence that myself and the other "bleeters & hand wringers" keep our wallets firmly shut when it comes to funding railway preservation is what, exactly?

    Tom
     
  11. MG 7305

    MG 7305 New Member

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    Having helped restore a locomotive many years ago and owning a MG TC since, I have found more hot air is generated by paint than anything else. I concluded that unless your are seriously involved, by cheque book or sweat and time, you do not get a vote. If you do not like a certain colour scheme on a locomotive, buy your own, restore it and paint it how you wish. Otherwise keep your peace.

    Best regards
     
  12. 05micfis

    05micfis Member

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    It has been mentioned from Steam Railway that blue will be on 7822 for at least a year, then possibly a repaint into BR lined black during 2014. Alternatively it has also been said that in 2014 she may revert to green first, then go black at a later date.

    I don't object to Foxcote Manor going into BR blue at all and this is from someone who was guilty of being a bit too critical in the past of inauthentic liveries; I think BR maroon on 48624 sits on her really well. The repaint is worth enduring, especially if it's just for a year.
     
  13. guard_jamie

    guard_jamie Part of the furniture

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    I disagree. Whilst the ensemble in the image you describe may not be an effective evocation of the past, the component parts - the carriages, the loco, the railway - are. The difference here is that you are taking an artefact and altering it well away from an effective evocation of the past and into a flight of fantasy.


    True. Commercial expediency has, sadly, to be at the forefront of many things a heritage railway does, however it's worth noting that many museums and other heritage organisations, such as the National Trust, are commercial, and they manage successfully within far more rigid conservational and accuracy guidelines.

    This is true, however we should not see that as a mandate to do as we please. Yes, we hold events such as TTTE and Peppa Pig that do not constitute heritage, but these are overlaid over our ordinary presentation and readily removable.

    True, but personally I feel that that leeway should be within the grounds of an effective evocation of the past. What if a locomotive owner was a lover of pink? A pink manor with Barbie on the tender? And don't think that we are singling out 7822 unfairly - it is just a relevant example to a wider point we're making.

    How is it spurious? If the locomotive carried the livery, or another member of its class did, I see no issue.

    Yes, that old point. It is only a few microns on a big lump of metal. But there is no denying it is one of the defining features of a locomotives appearance.

    Don't think that I am not prepared to put my money where my mouth is. If the owning group had conducted fundraising for a new coat of paint maybe I would have put my hand in my pocket for a livery I liked. Unfortunately I don't have a spare £3000+ to throw at the repaint of a loco. Are you suggesting that the alteration of a locomotive, from reversible like paint through to a complete redesign (I've always wondered what a GW tender loco would look like with outside motion) or even scrapping, should be on sale to the highest bidder?
     
  14. guard_jamie

    guard_jamie Part of the furniture

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    Are you saying that we are not allowed to voice an opinion? I know I don't get a choice in this, but I think I and others are allowed to express our negative opinions, just as others are allowed to express positive ones. I do not think we have expressed ourselves strongly or unfairly, we have given our reasons. I appreciate I have gone on a bit and for that I apologise, but it is insulting for my opinion to be discounted, for me to be labelled a 'bleeter and hand-wringer' and for it to be implied that I do not put my money where my mouth is.
     
  15. thb17

    thb17 New Member

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    Wouldn't bother me if it was painted in pink with barbie on its tender... And neither would 95% of passengers... If that's what some one wants to do... There not wrecking anything?
     
  16. lewis.maddox

    lewis.maddox Member

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    ...and it's still running!

    Thanks,
    Lewis
     
  17. thb17

    thb17 New Member

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    I agree much rather have a pink manor than a green class 37!
     
  18. blackfour

    blackfour New Member

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    Having read this thread, and seen the varying view points, I've come across something interesting. So long as a livery is accurate to the loco, then it's fine, apparently. So how can people complain about a Blue Black Five? One of them was painted as such in 1948. And another in Apple Green, and a third in an Ochre shade. Not for very long, admittedly...but it means that a Blue Black Five is entirely accurate. Just goes to show, there's a prototype for everything...well, sort of.
     
  19. guard_jamie

    guard_jamie Part of the furniture

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    It all depends, simply, on where your personal line lies. What is acceptable to one man might be completely unacceptable to the next, but on a completely different topic their views will be completely in accord and another their roles will almost reverse. We're all different. I like that.

    Now that would be interesting! Reproductions of the experimental liveries of 1948 - I'd be wholly in accord with that being done on locos of the same class - apple green Castle anyone? :D
     
  20. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

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    What makes you so sure I don't put my hand in my pocket then ?, Llangollen must of had an amount well into three figures off me over the three SS&S gala's to date.

    It's no wonder some railways and loco groups struggle for money and volunteers if they talk to people like you, why would I want to give your group/railway my time and money if you readily dismiss peoples opinions and bite the hand that feeds you ?.

    Everyone has differing views and by and large are discussing it like adults, but it comes across like you just enjoy getting someone's back up if you don't agree with them, hardly beneficial to enticing people to the NNR is it ?.
     

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