If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

71000 Matters

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by paralaxerror, Jan 12, 2013.

  1. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Messages:
    6,940
    Likes Received:
    4,251
    I suspect it's just that what we're used to seeing looks normal and what we're not used to seeing looks odd.
     
    Jimc, Richard Roper and Jamessquared like this.
  2. Hermod

    Hermod Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2017
    Messages:
    797
    Likes Received:
    231
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Klitmoeller,Denmark
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    E S Cox mentions that it was intended that the standards should have had outside roller bearings everywhere apart from driven,but it got in conflict with the UK loading gauge.
     
  3. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Messages:
    6,940
    Likes Received:
    4,251
    And yet the Kings have outside bearings on the front axle.
     
  4. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2006
    Messages:
    7,613
    Likes Received:
    4,603
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Freelance photo - journalist
    Location:
    Southport
    But weren't they restricted to previous broad gauge routes where the kinetic envelope allowed it ?
     
  5. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    3,637
    Likes Received:
    3,901
    Occupation:
    Once computers, now part time writer I suppose.
    Location:
    SE England
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Don't think so. AFAIK the King limits were purely on weight limits/bridge strength. Very complicated subject because under platform height its all very critical. Above platform height it was sometimes *slightly* more tolerant because the very occasional coach door handle being knocked off wasn't a disaster. On the other hand, any lateral movement is magnified the higher above rail level you go.
    Something that amused when I was studying the subject at Kew was an LNER proposal for a properly planned and designed composite gauge, incorporating safe allowances for dynamic movement etc, which was rejected by the running department because it would have banned certain stock from routes it had been running on for many years.
     
    Romsey and S.A.C. Martin like this.
  6. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    11,408
    Likes Received:
    10,845
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Complete news and very interesting. Was said proposal made in respect of LNE lines, or to start a move towards a uniform UK envelope?
     
  7. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    3,637
    Likes Received:
    3,901
    Occupation:
    Once computers, now part time writer I suppose.
    Location:
    SE England
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    It was just LNER. They did, I think, move to a composite loading gauge, but I didn't find a drawing/dimensions. I *think * it was RAIL 396/11.
     
    30854 likes this.
  8. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    11,408
    Likes Received:
    10,845
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Thanks Jim. I was aware of a Southern 'composite' loading gauge, not including Hastings, the Canterbury & Whitstable of Isle of Wight lines and (vaguely aware of) the BR era 'L1' standard, but only thanks to Mr Riddles' tweaks to Mr. Fairburn's Class 4 tank locos to make the BR version fit more lines.
     
  9. Sam 60103

    Sam 60103 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2019
    Messages:
    751
    Likes Received:
    250
    Location:
    Kirkcaldy
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Does anyone know what the plan for the Duke’s operations will be post overhaul? Will it be run in at the SVR?
     
    mike1522 likes this.
  10. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2016
    Messages:
    10,689
    Likes Received:
    5,419
    Occupation:
    Layabout
    Location:
    Lurking
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The reason for which no-one has ever satisfactorily explained to me.
     
    Richard Roper likes this.
  11. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    16,176
    Likes Received:
    13,284
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Will it be run in, I know its under a separate banner, but Tyseley overhauls normally just do a few runs to Stratford don't they?
     
  12. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2006
    Messages:
    2,798
    Likes Received:
    4,370
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Lecturer retired: Archivist of Stanier Mogul Fund
    Location:
    Wigan
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I understand that it was to provide sufficient clearance below the inside cylinders. The LMS Lizzies had their cylinders in the same location but used inside bearings. On the other hand, the King bogie was a plate frame while the Lizzies used bar frames.
     
  13. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    23,540
    Likes Received:
    47,118
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I thought it was to allow the bogie sufficient swing while clearing the inside cylinders, which are larger on a King - the front axleboxes on a conventional bogie would foul the (bigger) cylinders otherwise.

    Tom
     
  14. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    12,545
    Likes Received:
    13,247
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired, best job I've ever had
    Location:
    Buckinghamshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    You are right Tom. There was also a lot of trouble with the springs resulting in a derailment ash Midgham in 1927 and there was more trouble with the bogie frames in the 50s. One bogie on 6004 was modified with a slotted front stay, presumably to increase airflow around the bogie axle boxes. It was moved around on overhaul and was recorded on 6023, 6018,6028, 6014, 6024 6005 and 6021 in that order ( source, The Book of the Kings, Irwell Press)
     
  15. bluetrain

    bluetrain Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2019
    Messages:
    993
    Likes Received:
    1,231
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Wiltshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Did the LMS engines have horizontal or inclined cylinders? If inclined, it would have slightly raised the cylinders and given the bogie a little more space than on the GW Kings with their horizontal cylinders.
     
  16. Sam 60103

    Sam 60103 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2019
    Messages:
    751
    Likes Received:
    250
    Location:
    Kirkcaldy
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Good point. Would be interesting to see if it works solely for Vintage Trains or ends up working with others such as DBC. I must say I was surprised not to hear 71000 mentioned in the Steam Railway Magazine article about Tornado as 71000 was solely DBC operated when it last ran.
     
  17. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2006
    Messages:
    2,798
    Likes Received:
    4,370
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Lecturer retired: Archivist of Stanier Mogul Fund
    Location:
    Wigan
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    The outside cylinders were inclined but the insides were horizontal.
     
  18. Richard Roper

    Richard Roper Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    1,248
    Likes Received:
    1,274
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Librarian
    Location:
    Just up the road from 56E Sowerby Bridge
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I just found this on RMWeb, courtesy of "Miss Prism"... Interesting.

    The expensive insistence on using 6'6" wheels for the Kings, in order to achieve the prestigious 40k lbs tractive, led to the 'cylinder line' on the Kings being lower than that of the other big-wheel 4-6-0s, and it was found difficult to squeeze the existing Churchward barframe design in. This, and the desire to go to a plate frame design because of perceived (rivet) weaknesses in the Churchward barframe, led to the half-outside half-inside format for the King bogie. In the event, the weaknesses in the barframe structure was discovered subsequently to have arisen more from the lack of diagonal bracing rather than rivet cracking. Had this been known at the King design stage, they would probably have had a version of the Churchward barframe bogie.

    And this from "The Johnster"...

    It is a consequence of the divided drive de Glehn 4 cylinder layout inherited from the Stars and Castles and the 6'6" non standard driving wheel of the King design. The smaller driving wheels allowed a larger boiler to be squeezed into the loading gauge but it had to sit at a lower centre line, which meant that the bottoms of the inside cylinders, set forward to drive the leading axle, came perilously close to the top of the leading bogie, which had to be allowed room to bounce around a bit at speed. This then required the front of the bogie frame to be outside the wheels to allow the frame to rise around the bottom of the inside cylinders, especially if the loco was dipping forward under braking at speed and sitting down on the front springs, the rear wheels of the bogie being inside framed as this axle is to the rear of the cylinder casting and the motion does not get in the way; there's plenty clearance there.
    Plus it gave a nice brass outside bearing to be polished up; the GW liked a bit of polished brass on it's locos...

    Richard.
     
  19. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Messages:
    6,940
    Likes Received:
    4,251
    Thanks for those explanations of the King bogie. I now understand why the Princesses didn't need the same arrangement.
     
    Richard Roper likes this.

Share This Page