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7027 Thornbury Castle

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by svrhunt, Jan 18, 2015.

  1. Mr Valentine

    Mr Valentine Member

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    Actually GWP is a separate entity, the idea being that if the GWS ever went under, the stock collection would remain safe from the liquidator. The Directors are not appointed by the GWS, although obviously there is some crossover. If anything, I would say there isn't enough crossover, and it has become a retirement home for long-departed GWS Directors. But that's another issue!
     
  2. talyllyn1

    talyllyn1 Member

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    If this quote from Rail Advent is accurate -

    Jonathan said “We sold the engine in good faith, the departed GM from the GCR made various commitments of which we were ensured the loco would steam again & they offered a clear plan to restore. To learn that engine is being broken up has now led to much upset, for me this is a total back track on what we embarked on and a total misguide to business respect of words and agreement, we honoured the sale on trust, that has allowed a total breach of that.”

    ....one thing I learned while in Mr Gregory's employ was that, where business is concerned, everything should be subject to a water-tight contract and nothing - absolutely nothing - should be taken on "trust".
    I'm not sure if the "departed GM" is the recently departed Managing Director, but if it is then he was employed by Mr Gregory for many more years than I was.
     
  3. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    I stand to correction, but understood that it is a separate entity under the ownership of GWS.
     
  4. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    I confess to a certain amount of schadenfreude at this particular individual complaining about agreements not being honoured in spirit as well as letter.
     
  5. Hirn

    Hirn Member

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  6. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    There's a lot of it about these days. I blame that Marcus Porcius Cato.
     
  7. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    What money? Obviously we are deep into hypotheticals and lack of actual knowledge about who has paid what for what, but at least superficially, the 4709 group (which may or may not be the GWS) has paid an amount for 7027; and if they agree to JJP’s plan to extricate themselves from the PR mess and sell it, they may only just get back what they paid - i.e. be back to square one financially, a group without the wherewithal to fund a new boiler. Getting back any more (i.e. making a profit on the transaction) is I suppose possible, but not I suspect to the extent of £800k.

    Tom
     
  8. 60044

    60044 Member

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    The most important comment about this whole fiasco has yet to be made, I think, and it relates to the petition to reverse the sale. Are the signatories of this, outraged as they all must be, prepared to put their hands in their pockets sufficiently to fund the restoration through to completion? If they are not then it would seem that despite their outrage they are expecting others to do the hard part, but if they won't do it themselves, why should they expect others to do so? Fundraising to restore this loco as yet another Castle is going to be an uphill struggle, given that it is a not particularly significant example of the class.
     
  9. GWRman

    GWRman New Member

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    It's the only BR-built, single chimney Castle, that was built with a 3-row superheated boiler. It represents Hawksworth's departure from Collett's original design in an attempt to improve performance. If it wasn't for this type of Castle we may not have see the likes of Clun, Edgcumbe and the other DC members of the class. It may not be particularly significant to most people but to others it will be. It does have the "Castle Class" label though, which is always going to attract fans of the GWR in droves.

    As for the petition, I think the point of it was to raise awareness more than pay for a rebuild. At least that's how I interpreted it.
     
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  10. Bikermike

    Bikermike Well-Known Member

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    90% of legal drafting is that. And asking (repeatedly) "yes, I know you trust the other side and it's all going to go swimmingly, but what if it doesn't, then what?".
     
  11. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    Thank you for drawing out why 7027 is a significant milestone in the development of the class. I'm not sure it's right up there as a claim to fame, but it's worth note.
    In a situation like this, I'm not convinced that "raising awareness" is that great. It's easy to get outraged, but if this locomotive withdrawn 60-odd years ago, that has then spent 10 years in a scrapyard and then been "preserved" but largely ignored for most of the remaining 50, needs something, it's not awareness but action.
     
  12. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Merely meant whatever they end up get paid for flogging 7027, though I would just add, don't look at me sport ..... it's not my problem!
     
  13. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Fair point but to counter your argument how is the fundraising going to be done to build the next 47xx or ‘Star’ now that you’ve peed off a potential load of donors?
    If I were in charge of fund raising for a group like the EMF I know what I’d be doing right now.
     
  14. Bikermike

    Bikermike Well-Known Member

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    Well it was under restoration (and looking pretty nice), so there was a plan. If the sale can be unpicked, can that be resurrected?

    If it is borked, then this needs to be clearly and concisely (and independently) verified.

    The 4709 lot need to remember they don't have to justify their actions, but nobody has to donate, or pay steaming fees for it if it ever gets finished...
     
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  15. GWRman

    GWRman New Member

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    I think the point which has already been raised and at least partially debunked is that the loco has been in private hands for those 50 years and whilst it would have been possible to start up some sort of society in order to buy the loco, it may well have been all for naught if the owner didn't want to sell. But, that point has already been flogged to death on here and FaceAche.

    I doubt anyone ever imagined that a loco under restoration would have its fate turned in this direction. It's OK to be upset about it and I see no harm in someone trying to raise awareness. Even if 90% of the people who have put their name down don't dig around in their pockets, there's still a good starting point.
     
  16. Hirn

    Hirn Member

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    The new cylinders were cast to narrow the width across them to enable route availability across the present network where all bridge renewals etc have for a long time been going in for 25 tons axle load - GWR axle loading for double red was 22 tons 10 cwt. - they were also cast to lower the No 7 boiler under the modern height limit. In short route availability should now be fine on the main line where 4709 would be reliable with good acceleration and excellent adhesion.
     
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  17. GWRman

    GWRman New Member

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    Route availability may be fine, but pathing will be another story entirely. A likely 50/60mph limit loco is going to heavily restrict where it can go on a mainline railway, especially in year 20xx when it gets finished. Welsh Marches? S&C maybe?
     
  18. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    There was a plan - under a previous owner, and dependent on funding provided by that owner - I strongly suspect that it didn't have binding commitments, because the owner couldn't bind the GCR to the deal.

    That means that, whatever happens, there's a step back towards square 1. As @GWRman says, awareness does matter - but if 7027 is to be saved, then that awareness needs to have some substance to it or it will just be WIBN while the rust fairy works it's malign magic again.
     
  19. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    7027 was bought originally to be returned to steam , 5080 and 5043 were the spares engines . Every owner subsequently has planned to return to steam 7027 and for reasons only they know it hasn't happened . That doesn't mean 7027 should be denied a chance especially when you read the support it is attracting

    7027 was also pride of Worcester shed as well and immortalised in the cuneo painting hauling the Cathedrals Express.

    Clearly any rescue of 7027 needs a proper plan this time with a team to support its restoration
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2022
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  20. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Nat Pres stalwart

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    If the comments in SR is to be believed they seem to be getting a restored boiler for literally nothing.... :rolleyes:

    It's almost as if the 4709 group are making it up as they go along.

    But no different to fundraising for any restoration, just off the top of my head there are at least 2 black fives being restored, should they not bother as there are plenty of those already preserved, likewise compared to Castles Bulleid pacifics are coming out of our ears, I don't hear a clamour (apart from possibly the editor of Steam Railway) for them to be dismantled as there are already some preserved?

    Actually in many ways I wonder whether fundraising for 7027 if it were to happen might be helped by what's happened, I think its woken a fair few people from a complacent slumber that locomotives are safe now, when they obviously aren't whilst there are vultures circling.

    I can only speak for myself, I gave some money to the 4709 group early doors, but over time came to the conclusion that I wasn't sure what was really the point of the project, whilst I would love to see one its likely too big for most heritage lines, looked unlikely to go mainline and the project plan seemed to change by the week and after the last 7 days no chance of it getting a penny out of me unless this nonsense ends and those at the helm sort themselves out. If there were an appeal and a 7027 group I would be there.
     

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