If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

4920 Dumbleton Hall

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by david1984, Apr 6, 2012.

  1. pmh_74

    pmh_74 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2009
    Messages:
    2,244
    Likes Received:
    1,515
    Yes, that's what I was getting at.
    WCRC own a Black 5 and have reportedly bought another. They own a Jubilee and were recently rumoured to have bought another. I think they own a WC/BB and the remains of another which I guess could be restored at some point if the mood takes them. So actually they have form for not sticking to a single example of things. So they have a hall, buy another, and then sell it on? Seems out of character to me, especially if the reported buyer has previously been happy to take the other on loan and put a roof over it's head.

    Also from WB's perspective, Harry Potter mania is currently big business but will it be in 20 years time? The market for a non-working steam loco, should they decide to sell it on in 20 years time, could be very different than the market now. Already the movement is suffering from an ageing enthusiast base, and the economy is such that nobody much has any money. Why buy for £1m when you might end up selling it at a loss, and could probably hire it for a fraction of that?

    I'm purely speculating, but I'm speculating that the reported story may not add up.
     
  2. Gladiator 5076

    Gladiator 5076 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2015
    Messages:
    6,377
    Likes Received:
    5,138
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Swanage
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Agreed it is all speculation, but so is so much on here anyway.
    Black 5's of course go anywhere, Halls on the other hand are not much above go nowhere on the modern railway as I understand it due to gauge issues.
    WCRC or DS not sure which owned 5972 as I understand it so a lease may be attractive
    Who would 4930 be leased from? Unless of course WCRC wanted to become the GECAS of the Heritage world, or I suppose in railway speak a ROSCO?
     
  3. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2006
    Messages:
    8,270
    Likes Received:
    5,287
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Freelance photo - journalist
    Location:
    Southport
    Their main problem in identifying the reason for the gap is what cost(s) did WCRC bear in order to get 4920 from SDR to Japan; presumably some fettling on appearance (cosmetic ?) and transport costs would take a fair chunk out off any excess.
     
  4. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2006
    Messages:
    8,270
    Likes Received:
    5,287
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Freelance photo - journalist
    Location:
    Southport
    My understanding is that some locomotives are owned by a 3rd party but made available to WCRC on a (confidential) commercial basis.
     
  5. Fireline

    Fireline Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,214
    Likes Received:
    1,186
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Something in the back of my mind is telling me that it's neither. I seem to recall 5972 being owned by a friend of DS, and effectively being "managed" by WCRC. That may be why that was leased, but 4920 sold.
     
  6. 5944

    5944 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2006
    Messages:
    8,197
    Likes Received:
    7,904
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Train Maintainer for GTR at Hornsey
    Location:
    Letchworth
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I don't think anyone except a chosen few at WCRC know exactly who owns what. 34067 was apparently owned by a friend of DS as well, but I've seen it mentioned that DS actually owns it along with most of the other locos at 10A.
     
    26D_M likes this.
  7. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2006
    Messages:
    8,270
    Likes Received:
    5,287
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Freelance photo - journalist
    Location:
    Southport
    The question of legal ownership then comes into play whereby it could be a personal asset, a business asset or owned by a trust which then hires the locomotive to WCRC. Each has a legal status in what it can do and how it is able to be used. Ownership in a business sense is a very complex issue hence WCRC being able to say that it has the use of certain locomotives even although it may not have ownership of them.
     
  8. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    18,239
    Likes Received:
    16,025
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I think its the case with most of these large locomotive owning entities that actual ownership is somewhat convoluted. I know for instance that within LSL whilst Mr Hosking seems to be the ultimate owner of everything some are tied up in the Royal Scot Trust (don't recall when their full name is) yet others seem to have their own separate Ltd owning companies, for instance CH lists Locomotive 61306 Ltd, Locomotive 4270 Ltd, Locomotive 6024 Ltd, Locomotive 70000 Ltd, Locomotive 34046 Ltd, Locomotive 5029 Ltd, Locomotive 92212 Ltd, Locomotive 60019 Ltd and most bizarrely, which led me down this rabbit hole in the first place when I was trying to find some thing else and sort of brings it back to the wider topic of this thread, GWR Hall's, Locomotive 6960 Ltd which strangely also own the Critic Magazine!
     
    ragl and MikeParkin65 like this.
  9. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2015
    Messages:
    9,256
    Likes Received:
    7,296
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Thorn in my managers side
    Location:
    72
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Thinking about it...

    A theme park in the UK wants a loco. If you lease it you can keep an eye on it and when the lease comes to an end its relativley straightforward to get it back.

    Now if someone in Japan wants it, its a long long way away, very different legal system, not cheap to get the loco back to the UK etc etc so selling it makes sense
     
    The Black Hat and hyboy like this.
  10. Gav106

    Gav106 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2010
    Messages:
    1,742
    Likes Received:
    2,017
    Location:
    Nantwich, Cheshire
    Also remember that when 4920 left SDR it was relatively complete. When it left the UK i was told that it had had to be reduced in weight. Many parts were removed (and sold to the Hall at preston, wotton hall?). So no idea how much money they would have received from that as well. Who owns that Hall now?
     
  11. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    May 29, 2006
    Messages:
    4,023
    Likes Received:
    5,178
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    N.Ireland
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Furness Railway Trust
     
  12. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    18,239
    Likes Received:
    16,025
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    This rumour keeps coming up yet the FRT have never made any mention of it, and they make much mention when they do obtain parts for her in via their weekly blog including in recent times motion parts from Didcot and the SVR and a chimney from SVR?
     
  13. 1472

    1472 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2008
    Messages:
    1,910
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Some might suggest that deals with WCRC seem to carry a clause requiring confidentiality.............
     
    Matt78 and 26D_M like this.
  14. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,283
    Likes Received:
    58,158
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I wonder how tenable that is though?

    “Loco needs lubricator which is a complex brass casting - loco acquires lubricator without any news about the pattern making, casting etc - total mystery ensues …”

    Tom
     
  15. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    10,508
    Likes Received:
    18,135
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheltenham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    "Found it down the back of the sofa mate, now stop asking questions!"
     
  16. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    18,239
    Likes Received:
    16,025
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    That's the thing, FRT are incredibly open when they spend money to such an extent that they often mention in their blog when they have bought something like a new welder!

    All will become clear when the next accounts come out, they spent £1,400 on Wootton Hall in 2022, one will assume if they have bought a load of stuff off WCR in 2023 that will show up on the accounts as something of an anomaly.
     
    Jamessquared likes this.
  17. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,283
    Likes Received:
    58,158
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Exactly. I can’t see how you could keep a major infusion of new components secret, whatever the wishes of the seller.

    Tom
     
  18. 1472

    1472 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2008
    Messages:
    1,910
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Yet as far as I know we are unaware of what has happened to 45110 beyond a couple of rumours of sightings of a sheeted loco on a low loader heading north.....

    Yes we have all come to a conclusion but in a near vacuum of actual information.
     
    26D_M likes this.
  19. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    4,063
    Likes Received:
    4,689
    Occupation:
    Once computers, now part time writer I suppose.
    Location:
    SE England
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Lets think. The first thing, of course is to spread the purchase over three or four years so its not such a big headline item in the books. That's probably essential anyway because few groups will have large amounts of cash on hand. Then how many people actually publish an accurate inventory of what they possess? Put the pieces in the back of the store and when they're required "Oh yes, we managed to find one a few years back".

    Its not as if parts of dubious provenance suddenly appearing was unknown in the early days of preservation. And they need not have all gone to one purchaser. And frankly, if you get an offer of some parts you desperately need are you going to turn them down if you think they might have come from 4920 or are you going to cross your fingers and turn a Nelsonian eye?
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2024
    26D_M likes this.
  20. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Messages:
    8,220
    Likes Received:
    5,265
    If some standard Swindon parts can be either on a loco that is or will be operational or on one that will be on static display for an indefinite period, the former seems to me preferable.
     
    hyboy likes this.

Share This Page