2999: Lady of Legend

"You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time."

"You can hardly please, hardly any of the enthusiasts, hardly any of the time."

 

Justify to whom? If a group owns three halls, two of them complete and one ex-scrapyard, and chooses to spend their own time and money reverse-engineering the latter into a Saint rather than overhauling one of the others, isn't that up to them? Who do you think they should be accountable to?

Does calling their decision unwise mean anything more than 'I wish they'd spent their money on my favourite projects'?

Then you're free to give them some. I'm sure the MLS would welcome a cheque for Stowe. Or if it's a Hall you really want to see in steam, the Friends of Hagley Hall have an expensive new pair of cylinders to pay for.

 

"Stowe" is under overhaul and likely to run again within the next few years.

However, I think it is a good example of why many locos that have run previously in preservation do not return immediately. When it first ran, relatively little work was done to restore it, since there was still considerable residual life in the locomotive, and the mileage it then ran was not very high (I haven't got the figures to hand, but I suspect it only ran a few thousand miles per year).

The current overhaul has seen it lifted off the wheels for the first time; repairs to the axle boxes; a very substantial (=costly) repair to the inner firebox; some frame repairs to repair wasted material - etc etc. That level of repair is far from uncommon these days, and should set the loco up well for years to come. But the bottom line is that conditions are different now: locos are needing much more substantial repairs (costly in cash, people and time), with probably a smaller skilled workforce to do the work. The result is that most railways are contracting their operational fleets, but working the locos they have harder. A railway that may have had 12 or 13 locos in steam in the 1980s, but running an average of 2,000 miles per year each, will now likely have 6 or 7 available, but running 6 - 8,000 miles or more per year each to run a more intense service. Keeping more locos than you need in steam has become prohibitively expensive, even it was feasible to achieve in terms of workshop capacity.

So I think the future is likely to be longer gaps between overhauls for some locos, probably stretching to decades in some cases. A critical need, and something that Didcot actually achieves well, is good quality storage for out of traffic locos so that they don't revert to scrapyard conditions in those long periods out of traffic.

Tom

 

"Lets steam another Hall".

I feel like going onto the roof of Waterloo station right now and screaming "no more b***** Halls!" We had eleven, we now have ten plus six modified Halls plus a Saint from a Hall. The Saint was a clear and obvious and necessary gap to fill in GWR locomotive development. Arguably the most important gap to fill given everything that came after.

16 Halls and 1 Saint. Some perspective needed I think...!

 

If locos can only be taken from scrap condition to fully operational if all of the existing fleet of restored locos are kept in operational order, then I don't think we will have had the benefit of 150+ returns to steam from Woodhams scrapyard.

 

I was merely expressing a personal preference as to where I think the limited resources available should be spent and explaining why i’d prefer locos we have but haven’t steam for a while to be afforded higher priority. It is as much driven by wistful romanticism and nostalgia as someone wanting to build a Saint out of a Hall.

The ‘why don’t you fund a.n.other project or do it yourself’ is a strawman argument and misses the point. If I am asked to contribute to fund a new build or a project such as say 506, I find it harder to justify funding a new build over the restoration. Again, this is just personal preference. If you want to fund new builds, knock yourself out.

 

Quite right Tom, a lot of the engines returned to steam in the 70’s are now sitting awaiting overhaul because they’ve used up the residual life in there boilers and cylinders etc . Also, a lot of plate work (tender tanks etc) now need replacing. Sometimes, having a nicely painted but mechanically worn loco for your museum is better, For instance. Take 5900 to bits for overhaul and you have a hall in bits for a number of years, reducing the overall impact of the steam shed at Didcot. I think some of these engines time will come again, but not necessarily right now.

 

That seems quite applicable to many heritage/tourist lines in the past and in the present. Most internecine squabbles have a destructive effect and generally retard progress.

 

Try Paddington and substitute Merchant Navy for Hall. Wiki says there are also eleven of them.

 

I'd say Ellerman Lines can only be counted as a half.

 

That is something of a red herring. I am not sure that the argument that because there are several of a given class available that they are of less value than classes where there are fewer examples is a sound one. If a group wants to restore say Stepney or Fenchurch, will you tell them 'no more Terriers there are already too many?'

There are two broader questions:

i) Whether more projects end up diluting the available resource base meaning that projects come to fruition more slowly or not at all.

ii) Whether it is necessary or a good thing to new build one loco out of another.

i can be related to ii especially if the decision to build out of the remains of other locos is done on the grounds of cost.

I don't think there is a good answer to either question and in the end it is down to those who want to see a project come to fruition.

It seems to me to be a bit arsey versey to have two P2 projects, or two B17 projects, or to have the Saint, County, Grange, 47xx all on the go at the same time (rather than one following the other (ie what if A1SLT had tried to build Tornado and 2007 at the same time)) but like the Pope, who are we to judge.

I am happy when any project succeeds whether that is the Saint or in the future 27 and I am sad when any project stalls or is hit by problems such as those the Patriot, County and 828.

 

There is really only one P2, at the current rate of fund raising the Doncaster one will steam in about 3000 years time and I doubt if either B17 will get built. The others are using spare parts to a n extent and the Grange is well on the way

 

Agree with all the above except the B17s - Manchester United will likely never be seen in steam, but the Spirit of Sandringham bunch are a much more serious outfit. They could do with some better social media and online presence, but they certainly have the experience and backing to complete the project. When though I can't say.

 

From the point of view of feet through the door are people more likely to turn out for a third Hall of umpteen, or a straight framed Saint?

 

So if there had been an infinite number of, for instance, Halls at Barry just how many should have been preserved? Or to put it another way you have a time machine and a blank cheque to go back to 1963. How many locomotives do you buy off British Railways?

 

As a general principal, my preference given your time machine and chequebook would be greater variety over greater depth. But I'd set my time machine to 1950 rather than 1963, because it gives you a much greater choice, in particular stretching back to a lot of late 19th century stuff that was very rapidly culled after World War II. Personally I'd sacrifice all 16 Halls for the opportunity of one Kirtley A class 0-4-4T and a Stroudley D tank

Tom

 

I like this new game! I'd give every Bullied pacific for a Dean bogie single. Over to you, internet!

 

Or an original condition churchward Star....

 

In a parallel universe it would indeed be good to have fewer of certain well-represented classes in exchange for some that are completely missing, though I wouldn't go so far as to exchange every Hall or Bulleid pacific for just one or two other locos. I'm very happy that there are some Halls and Bulleids about, pulling trains (such as tomorrow's Chilterns and Downs trip). But I am also very happy that we now have Lady of Legend rather than one more restored Hall or, more likely, one more unrestored Hall. She should even be slightly more gauge-friendly, given the higher position of the cylinders. Whether gauge-friendly enough to be able to run on many main lines remains to be seen.

 

If I have a blank chequebook and a time machine I think I am saving sufficient numbers of different types of machine in good condition and spare parts to ensure that it is never an either/or discussion

Of course I am using my blank cheque book and time machine to purchase the entire site of Swindon (or St Rollox) works and its equipment so that my vast collection of locomotives, carriages and wagons can be stored and maintained indoors.