If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

100% Authenticity

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by Henry the Green Engine, May 20, 2018.

  1. ruddingtonrsh56

    ruddingtonrsh56 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2009
    Messages:
    637
    Likes Received:
    917
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Nottinghamshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Here's an alternative take on this question: Do we NEED to be able to have 100% authenticity? Most people (even most enthusiasts) won't be able to tell the difference between what is 100% authentic and what is close enough to give the impression of complete authenticity. Take the example of 4566. Apparently there's something in that shot that means it isn't completely authentic. But to my eye (and I'm a pretty geeky enthusiast), that looks good enough to be authentic, and therefore it's good enough for me. I remember several years ago Bittern appeared at a SVR Spring Gala when painted Garter Blue, and was of course paired with their rake of Teaks. The route wasn't right, it would have been incredible rare/unheard of to see an A4 in LNER pre-war days on a single track line, and yet it was hailed by many there, myself included, as being 'just like it would have been'. I'd imagine the same happened when the Crab visited earlier this year and was put in front of their LMS stock.
    Maybe we should see how close we can get without being really picky and bending over backwards so much that we break our spines, and then just be content at that...?
     
    jnc, Johnme101, gwalkeriow and 2 others like this.
  2. Henry the Green Engine

    Henry the Green Engine New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2016
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    58
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Hants
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I wasn't demanding 100%. I covered the reasons why its impossible in the OP. Just asking if it exists anywhere at all. Only the smaller places have any chance I would think. Truthall Halt on the Helston branch is a replica which looks right, in the current HR page 40. Any more out there?
     
    Greenway likes this.
  3. Wenlock

    Wenlock Well-Known Member Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2008
    Messages:
    1,825
    Likes Received:
    1,114
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Bus Driver
    Location:
    Loughton Essex
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    It certainly looks like a side-lamp. Both lenses should be clear, and there should be a red shade which drops into the slot between one lens and the main body. There should also be a slot on one of the blank sides, for storing the red shade when not needed.
     
  4. RalphW

    RalphW Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Friend

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2005
    Messages:
    33,123
    Likes Received:
    7,286
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired-ish, Part time rail tour steward.
    Location:
    Northwich
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    And send children down the mines to dig the coal.......
     
    johnofwessex and Bluenosejohn like this.
  5. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    11,534
    Likes Received:
    11,425
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired, best job I've ever had
    Location:
    Buckinghamshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Another picture to assess for realism. Apart from the copper safety valve bonnet and lack of ATC gear, what's to say this is not GWR in the 30s. It's as good as it gets in the 21st century

    305 4566 Bewdley 08-10-13.jpg
     
  6. Greenway

    Greenway Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2008
    Messages:
    3,684
    Likes Received:
    3,523
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    South Hams
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Rusty unused rails? :D and I think the lettering on the tank sides might be a later date than 1930's.
     
  7. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    9,778
    Likes Received:
    15,843
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheltenham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Express boat train in Bewdley platform 3? :)

    That aside, another superb photo, the SVR does it extremely well.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2018
  8. gwalkeriow

    gwalkeriow Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    1,669
    Likes Received:
    1,682
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    “Bradley” has autocorrect struck again?
     
  9. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    9,778
    Likes Received:
    15,843
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheltenham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Aaaah! I'm going to kill this phone - my last one learnt all the railway places fairly quickly!
     
  10. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    Simon,

    I think you ought to look at the various Youtube videos of Norfolk and Western J class J No. 611 and the vehicles she hauls then wonder if we can match this in any way. The Americans call her the Queen of Steam and are very likely right.

    Paul H
     
  11. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    21,847
    Likes Received:
    41,546
    Location:
    215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Too many vans and not enough opens in the goods train? ;)

    (Take a look at prewar goods trains - they tended to be dominated by opens, with vans fairly rare).

    Cracking photo, though. The SVR appear to do infrastructure very well - i.e. strip away the trains and look at what is left: bullhead rail, miniature shunt signal, mechanical rather than electrical point operation etc. To me, authenticity ought to start at the infrastructure level, i.e the railway should look recognisably historic without any trains in sight. I often think that an inappropriately liveried loco or piece of rolling stock is only one trip to the paintshop away from authenticity, but infrastructure infelicities have a dispiriting tendency to last for decades.

    Tom
     
    35B, pmh_74, Bluenosejohn and 5 others like this.
  12. Robin

    Robin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2012
    Messages:
    1,079
    Likes Received:
    1,219
    Location:
    Stourbridge
    It would indeed be difficult to do much better. No criticism of another magnificent picture intended, but since you ask... ;)

    MOGOs (first wagon in the consist) were built from 1933 through to the BR era. Pre-War ones had planked bodies but that particular one has plywood panels which were used as a post-WW2 austerity measure.
     
  13. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2006
    Messages:
    10,567
    Likes Received:
    7,404
    Occupation:
    Gentleman of leisure, nowadays
    Location:
    Near Leeds
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    The (G)WR always did things differently so perhaps they had white side lamps? As a matter of interest, does it have a bracket on the opposite side?
     
  14. Wenlock

    Wenlock Well-Known Member Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2008
    Messages:
    1,825
    Likes Received:
    1,114
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Bus Driver
    Location:
    Loughton Essex
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    If there were no bracket on the other side then it could not be used to show the three reds for normal running.
    (That is to say all three lamps on the van showing red to rear and the side lamps showing white forward.)
     
  15. Forestpines

    Forestpines Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2009
    Messages:
    1,681
    Likes Received:
    2,436
    Location:
    Bristol
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    It would also be unusual for a pre-war goods train to only have wagons from one company. Most wagons were common-user, so the mix of wagons in any train would reflect the sizes of the four companies, with the slight caveat that GWR wagons with Dean-Churchward brakes (the sort with the small handle) tended to get sent back to the GWR quickly because other companies didn't like them. So even on the GWR, there is a good chance the majority of the train would be made up of other companies' wagons.

    If you want to get specific about the location: the signalling gives it away, as the backing signal on the Down Main is a post-preservation addition, and the Down Main Inner Home signals, which are just about visible under the footbridge, only took that form in the 1950s when the signalbox was raised slightly. Having said that, the Bewdley signalling is some of the most authentic on the SVR, even though it has a lot more track-circuiting now than it did before preservation.
     
    Johnb and Jamessquared like this.
  16. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    11,534
    Likes Received:
    11,425
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired, best job I've ever had
    Location:
    Buckinghamshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    It's the livery and lettering used up to 1934 when the 'shirt button' monogram was introduced, GWR paint was very durable and there's photographic evidence of the pre 1934 livery lasting to post war days
     
    Kinghambranch likes this.
  17. Ploughman

    Ploughman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2008
    Messages:
    5,363
    Likes Received:
    2,324
    Occupation:
    Ex a lot of things.
    Location:
    Near where the 3 Ridings meet
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Concrete sleepers from the 40s - 50s.
    Was stone in use as ballast or ash?
     
  18. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Part of the furniture Account Suspended

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2016
    Messages:
    10,034
    Likes Received:
    4,853
    Occupation:
    Layabout
    Location:
    Lurking
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Indeed - there is a *huge* building next to Peterborough station as you come into Peterborough from the south; that was the Great Northern Railway Sheet Store, where they made up the covers for their wagons.
     
  19. talyllyn1

    talyllyn1 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2008
    Messages:
    188
    Likes Received:
    221
    s
    I've just been having a closer look at it. It does have brackets on both sides and one of them incorporates the slot to put the red slide in when not used, so it's definitely a side lamp (lenses on the other two sides).
    Just to compound the mystery, I can now see BRE stamped on the side of the chimney! The white paint is "thin" and looks to be sprayed rather than brushed. There is no trace of any black paint anywhere, and if I flake off a small amount of the white paint the surface underneath it is mostly rusty, but resembles a galvanised finish where it isn't. I don't think it has been repainted, but if it was it would have been done in BR service.

    Edit...
    This has been "bugging" me so I've just been looking at Paul Bartlett's excellent photo archive of rolling stock. After a couple of minutes searching I found a photo of a BR brake van at York in 1980 showing white side lamps:-
    http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brbrakevan506/e3437cc0e
    Here's an ex GW example:-
    http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrbrakevan/e3850ef9a
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2018
  20. DR73202

    DR73202 New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2009
    Messages:
    39
    Likes Received:
    24

Share This Page