More 1930's and 40's paint schemes would be nice

With all of the BR Green and Black being tossed around everywhere it would really be nice to see more of the other colors get a little more representation. I hope others feel this way, not just me.

I'm asking politely.

 

I agree. In the 1980s in particular, virtually all the grouping and nationalisation liveries were carried on the preserved engines, on both the mainline and preserved railways. These days, if it isn't a BR livery, its rarely seen, especially not on the mainline. I know the mainline engines can now only run with BR liveried stock, but surely we don't have to loose pre-nationalisation liveries on everything as a result. I'm very glad to see the crab in LMS livery, and to here that 5305 will soon be back in LMS black, it would be nice to see a few more change. I know its owners perogative and all that, but variety is the spice of life they say...
Daniel

 

I'm with you on that. The current 42968 will return from overhaul as LMS 13268, a reasonable match for 13067 at Bury.

There is a tendency for the ex-spotters from the 1960s - understandably - to try to relive the BR years of their youth. As age takes its toll and, hopefully, younger enthusiasts who did not know steam in BR days come to the fore, and who have no allegiance to British Railways, we should see a greater spread of potential liveries being used.

 

And 13065 as well.

 

Look Mike, 5305, 13268, 13065 and 13067. That's 4 already.....

 

It is to be hoped, that the anxiety to return to the styles of an earlier age might extend to the use of "hopefully" as an adverb.

 

Ah yes, you can't have too many Crabs. Or so I'm told...

 

Now you've started something.

"Four points about this word: First, it was widely condemned from the 1960s to the 1980s. Briefly, the objections are that (1) hopefully properly means “in a hopeful manner” and shouldn't be used in the radically different sense “I hope” or “it is to be hoped”; (2) if the extended sense is accepted, the original sense will be forever lost; and (3) in constructions such as “Hopefully, it won't rain this afternoon,” the writer illogically ascribes an emotion ( hopefulness) to a nonperson. Hopefully isn't analogous to curiously (= it is a curious fact that), fortunately (= it is a fortunate thing that), and sadly (= it is a sad fact that). How so? Unlike all those other sentence adverbs,hopefully can't be resolved into any longer expression involving the wordhopeful —but only hope (e.g., it is to be hoped that or I hope that).Second, whatever the merits of those arguments, the battle is now over. Hopefully is now a part of American English, and it has all but lost its traditional meaning—e.g.: “Hopefully, one day we will all grow older.” ( San Diego Union-Tribune; Nov. 26, 1997.) Sometimes, the word is genuinely ambiguous (if the original meaning is considered still alive)—e.g.: “Dave Krieg will take the snaps and, hopefully, hand off to RB Garrison Hearst.” ( USA Today; Sept. 1, 1995.) (Is Krieg hoping for the best when Hearst runs? Or is the writer hoping that Krieg won't pass the football or hand off to another running back?) Indeed, the original meaning of hopefully is alive, even if moribund—e.g.: “Officials recently have pointed hopefully to signs of increased usage of the garage.” (Boston Globe; Oct. 9, 1994.)Third, some stalwarts continue to condemn the word, so that anyone using it in the new sense is likely to have a credibility problem with some readers—e.g.• “Professor Michael Dummett, an Oxford logician, condemns the new usage of hopefully because only a person can be hopeful, and in many such cases there is nobody around in the sentence to be hopeful.” ( Daily Telegraph [UK]; Dec. 11, 1996.)• “Although various adverbs may be used to modify entire clauses,hopefully isn't among them—yet. I only hope I won't have to concede that it is until I'm an old, old woman.” (Barbara Wallraff, Word Court; 2000.)Fourth, though the controversy swirling around this word has subsided, any use of it is likely to distract some readers. Avoid it in all senses if you're concerned with your credibility: if you use it in the traditional way, many readers will think it odd; if you use it in the newish way, a few readers will tacitly tut-tut you.Throughout the late twentieth century, the common wisdom was that the use of hopefully as a sentence adverb had begun sometime around the early 1930s. Then, in 1999, a lexicographic scholar named Fred Shapiro, using computer-assisted research, traced it back to Cotton Mather's 1702 book, Magnalia Christi Americana, in this sentence: “Chronical diseases, which evidently threaten his Life, might hopefully be relieved by his removal.” The evidence then skips to 1851, then to the 1930s.Usage notes show additional guidance on finer points of English usage."

 

Hopefully

 

If we are talking about heritage line rather than mainline, then we have eight "home fleet" locos available for traffic. Of those, three are in Southern Railway livery; three in SE&CR (pre-grouping) livery; one is an industrial in what I assume is authentic for pre-preservation; one is in a fictious corporate livery (but based on pre-grouping). We have no home-fleet locos available for traffic in BR livery (Though there is one on loan, and a couple from the home fleet in the pipeline...)

Generally, I'd agree with LMS2968 above (not about Crabs, but his other post): I think it is a generational thing, caused by what the people influential in preservation at any time remember from their youth. In the 1970s and 1980s, that meant people rememebering back to the 1930s and painting things in pre-nationalisation liveries. Currently it means people remembering back to the 1950s / 1960s, so you get lots of BR-era drabness. In due course, I think there will be a flowering of many different liveries, as the people who are influential in preservation don't have those childhood memories to fall back on, or else their childhood memories of steam are only preserved steam.

Personally, I like the older liveries, not because I remember them, but precisely because I don't remember them and want to see that era recreated! I have very little nostalgia for the railways of my youth (1970s / 1980s) - a singularly baleful time.

Tom

 

I think there's another factor - steam locos are the main draw of heritage lines, but they're only part of the picture - carriages, stations, signalboxes and so on. If you go back to the early 1970s, there were few attempts to create any sort of cohesive image. Dutring that period, I took a picture of a train leaving Sheffield Park consisting of the Dukedog coupled to the "C" class tender in plain green with a Caledonian coach immediately behind. A right hotch-potch, especially at an LB&SCR station but hardly anyone cared - what mattered was that we could still experience the thrill of travelling behind a steam loco. Ditto on the main line. There was Didcot's splendid GWR rake, which really looked the part behind 5051 or whatever, but most main line specials consisted of Mark 1 stock in two-tone blue - just about an authentic looking train with a Black Five in BR livery (late crest) up front, but hardly with, say, Leander or Lizzie in LMS maroon, Lord Nelson in SR green or even 60009 in BR green hauling the train. Once again, I don't remember anyone complaining about loco or coach liveries.

Looking back, it was the 1980s when things changed. The repainting of a main line registered Mk 1 set into maroon coincided with the Worth Valley line taking a deliberate approach to attempt to recreate a 1950s Midland branch line feel. At this time, the former spotters from the 1960s would now be 30-40 years old and therefore more active on heritage lines or in main line support crews, while the generation for whom the golden days were the Big Four years would have been getting on for 60. An additional factor would have been the development of a new generation of heritage lines which didn't have the luxury of, say the Bluebell in being able to buy locos and pre-nationalisation carriages direct from BR. Of the 212 locos saved from Barry Scrapyard, about 90 were either built or extensively rebuilt during the BR era and thus could only authentically carry a BR livery. It is therefore unsurprising that some of the "second generation" heritage lines, relying on ex-Barry locos and Mk 1 coaches, have opted to take a similar approach to the Worth Valley and attempt some sort of recreation of the BR years as they have insufficient pre-grouping locos or stock to do otherwise. Whether a black five hauling seven Mark 1s is an authentic 1950s branch line train is another matter!

However, all these factors have combined to favour the BR era, although there have ben some exceptions - Lizzie has remained in LMS livery throughout and I believe is required by the owning group's constitution to continue to do so. Likewise, on the Gloucester-Warwick line, a classic second generation line using almost exclusively Mk 1 stock, 2807 and 4270 have been restored in GWR livery.

It is encouraging that more interest is being taken in pre-48 carriages. Not only are lines like the Bluebell and SVR adding to the number of older coaches they operate, but some lines previously dominated by Mk 1 Stock like the Great Central, West Somerset and Swanage Railways are seeking to put older vehicles in service. This must inevitably reduce pressure for locos to be painted in BR colours in due course.

Obviously, it's not so easy to run a complete pre-48 train on the main line due to the restrictions on wooden-bodied stock. Personally, I'd suggest to the A1 trust that rather than building a third loco after the P2 is finished, they should build a rake of coaches which internally and externally look like Gresley teaks but with a structure compatible with main line operation.

While I'm not too keen on the drab 1940s wartime liveries, personally, I'm sure that if even the most ardent enthusiast for the BR era were to be transported in some mythical time-travel machine to tbe Big Four era or even the pre-grouping era, they would be quite transfixed. While my first stopping point in an imaginary journey on the Tardis wold be the LSWR main line in the 1960s when the Bulleids were belting along at the head of express trains to Bournemouth and Exeter, my second port of call would be Sussex in LBSCR days - no Brunswick Green in sight anywhere!

 

Apparently 4270 will at some point be restored to original livery with "Great Western" on the tank sides and original buffers, don't know when that's going to happen though. Also remember 8274 can usually be found with LMS on her tender, although the amount if liveries they've been able to put on her without changing the colour but only what's on the tender and cab plate is amazing!

I'm definitely in favour of non BR liveries when possible. There are plenty of BR engines about which can only carry BR liveries, so let's just keep them on those locos, and giving the older locos the liveries they deserve.

 

An interesting variation on this livery debate is to look at the Manor class. There are nine preserved examples, four built by the GWR, five built by BR. All have worked in preservation. The last time a genuine GWR manor worked in GWR livery was 1985! No one can use the excuse that the GW manors wouldn't be paired with GW stock, as they are all based on the Severn Valley or at Didcot. With five Manors having to wear BR livery to be historically correct, can we hope that we might see 7802 and 7812 come out in GWR livery sometime soon?
Daniel

 

I did suggest to one of the Dinmore manor people that could they please "accidentally" put on "Great Western" on the tender a while ago, I didn't get a great response!

 

Aren't there some post-1948 locos of GWR parentage that have worn (anachronistic) GWR livery in preservation? It seems that GWR is a big enough "brand" that people are willing to paint locos that can only wear BR livery with "GWR" on them, to a much larger extent than other locos. I imagine there would be an outcry if you painted any of the remaining unrebuilt Bulleids post-34070 in Southern Livery! (Though I quite like the way 34081 has in the past worn the very early BR incarnation of malachite green with "BRITISH RAILWAYS" on the tender - more interesting than just another Brunswick green job, a livery that doesn't really suit the original Bulleids anyway).

Tom

 

Yes Tom, 7827 wore totally incorrect mock GWR livery for many years. 6998 also wore GW livery for many years. 6990 is an interesting one, in that she was built by BR, but can correctly carry GW livery, having worn it for the 1948 locomotive exchanges.
Daniel

 

I think there have been, but that may have been in those earlier times when less people cared a discussed earlier - are there still any locos in anachronistic livery? I actually think Brunswick green suits the unrebuilt Bulleids quite well, lthough of course I prefer the malachite

 

Quite! My aside was meant as a metaphor for the livery debate.

 

I will add Rood Ashton Hall to the mix.
I guess I meant 1930 early 1940's before WWII.

I did mean Mainline locomotives as well.

 

Not just GWR. (6)1306 carried LNER 1306 until very recently in spite of carrying 61306 from the word go on entering service in 1948. Similarly Blue Peter carried LNER 532 f0r a while in spite of entering traffic as 60532. I'm sure there will be other examples.