Dean Goods Locomotive discussion only please

It's Andy and Charlie's Virtual Loco restoration Co ..... the OP seems to have disappeared. Shame I would like to have known a bit more.

 

Most of you on here will know I'm not averse to talking to anyone about the collection and plans for it - however, with 2516, there is a major cost implication that very few would fundraise for, and that's extracting it from the building at Swindon. And that's from me, who would dearly love to see it run.

 

hi anthony,
hope you dont mind me asking but why was 2516 allowed to be placed in such a position? with hindsight it seems totally inconceivable to allow such a move.
cheers,
julian

 

Hi Anthony, out of interest is there a ballpark figure that you could assign to such a move? it would be interesting to hear from someone at the sharp end what sort of sum you'd need to be talking and what would actually be involved. I know i personally would be happy to contribute to such a cause, just to get her out of captivity and open up a few possibilities for the future.

Dan

 

Captivity! As a died-in-the-wool Southern man, I've heard Swindon described in quite a few ways, but I think that is the first time I've heard the works described thus! You make it sound like the poor loco is banged up without trial in some banana republic prison for a crime it didn't commit, rather than being on show at a large railway museum.

Still, time to start a campaign. "Free the Swindon 1 now!" I'm sure the "usual suspects and hand wringers" (to use a phrase much beloved in New General Chat) could be persuaded to come on board if we can just convince them of the magnitude of the miscarriage of justice that has taken place here...

Tom

 

haha, yes very good!
I can't say i attached quite so much sentiment to the word, perhaps 'get her out of such an inconvienient position in the museum' would have been a better way to put it. but thats rather boring after all and it wouldn't have amused you so would it

On a serious note i dont have a problem with it being on show at swindon, i quite like the place, it just seems a little limiting that the loco is marooned in its current position, especially when it seems there is some will at least for the loco to be returned to action. (freedom if you like!) Either way Anthony, if you good chaps at the NRM ever make that appeal happen i for one will be sending you as serious a wedge as i can muster.

regards

Dan

 

yep, as was well pointed out in another thread, lets get the Dean Goods out of a hopeless location where only a few tens of thousands can get to see here every year, and get her stuffed in the back of a damp shed in pieces as the plaything of a dozen or so amateur engineers. How could anyone possibly object?

 

Just to be clear, i'm not advocating sending her into to the care of the recently formed dean goods group, although i wish them no ill and i'm sure their heart is in the right place, it would have to be a job done properly by people who know what they are doing. She's a very importent old loco, and if examined and proven to be too frail to ever steam again i wouldn't wish a rebuild to be carried out and lose too much of her. That said I dont see any reason why being in operation on preserved railways would limit her exposure, it would surely increase it?

 

Leave the Dean Goods be, its in a superb place as it is.
Sure if you built a loco, with that old boiler, and asked really nicely, the nrm might even lend you Truro' s fairly similar tender whilst another is made over the first few running years.
Nowt like another new build GWR scheme. Only this one might work and is a 'rebuild' mostly ...

 

you think that a newbuild is a better idea? sorry not sure if you are being sincere or sarcastic, lol, its hard to tell on here sometimes!

If so its interesting to see such an idea being supported, i note that generally new build schemes seem to attract a lot of flak. on the forum.

 

New builds do tend to attract a lot of flak on Nat Pres - and often for good reason!

The real issue is credibility (leaving aside the other more subjective issues that have been aired here about desirability and necessity). The new build projects that have either succeeded or appear likely to have either established their credibility by being associated with organisations with a proven track record (Didcot, Bluebell, Ffestiniog, Llangollen, etc), or produced a realistic business plan that is convincing (I think Tornado would probably fit there), or have proven their credibility by getting on and delivering the goods. Frankly, the ability to convince people on this forum, or on Facebook, is of little consequence either way, fun though it might be to discuss our dreams, visions or hallucinations. You want to do something, get on and do it. When you've got something credible to offer to others then tell people about it. You want advice, then by all means ask, but the quality of the advice will vary depending on who you ask.

On topic - I like the idea of a Dean Goods, but maybe the place to start, if a new build is to be seriously contemplated, is to talk to the railways that might be interested in having one and see if some support and guidance is forthcoming there.

Steve B

 

haha, thats ok martin, just wanted to make sure i was reading things right.

Steve,
Generally i am more supportive of new builds (credible ones) than some others seem to be, in this case though i cant help but feel that it may be a large ask of resources when the real thing still exists, although obviously i am not in a position to say whether the condition of the loco would permit restoration to service.

 

Good post, Steve

 

Indeed, and I would agree with that. When I said that I liked the idea of a Dean Goods I was merely saying that I like them so as to make it clear that my reservations were not from some other bias. It could also be a very practical loco for many preserved lines. But do we need one? Is anyone prepared to pay for one (I wouldn't/couldn't)? Are there better candidates? Those are also important questions.

Steve B

 

It comes down to "wow factor". the P2 has it. Rightly or wrongly, a Dean Goods doesn't - at least not for me, and I suspect many others.

Also, I'm not 100% convinced that having a boiler would change the calculation that much. Finger in the air time, but I reckon a boiler is probably about 1/3 the total cost of a project. So if you have one in good condition, that knocks quite a substantial sum off the total. Beachy Head was certainly lucky in that regard in that the boiler is to all intents and purposes new. But even that needs new tubes, a superheater header being made and various other small modifications. If you take a boiler that has had a hard service life and then spent another twenty or thirty years outside, it is arguable that the amount of work needed to bring it up to serviceable condition is so much that, set against the total new build cost, you might only be talking about a 10% or 20% discount on the project, relative to just building a new boiler. Not really enough to tip a project from "marginal no" to "definite yes". What will make a project happen is having a large number of people (probably numbering in the hundreds at least) willing to put their hands into their pockets on a regular basis, probably to the tune of at least £50k per year for well over a decade.

As for "wow" factor. Inherently, a small engine like a Dean Goods would be eminently suitable for many preserved lines - a point we have discussed, in various guises, many times before. But when all is said and done - its a vernacular 0-6-0 tender engine. They're two-a-penny across myriad railway companies, and therein lies the problem. For every GWR fan desperate to see a Dean Goods, you'll find Southern fans wanting Black Motor or C2x; LMS fans wanting whatever they had; the LNER lot wanting a Jxx (take your pick…); the Scottish fans wanting something by Peter Drummond or Dugald Drummond or someone else, and probably cleaving along Caley / North British / Highland lines. In short, while a nice rugged 0-6-0 would be suitable for many preserved lines, your actual catchment of enthusiasts to build any one specific example is probably too small to be viable. The GWR has a bigger support / fan base than most lines, so in theory a Dean Goods might be a more suitable pick than many, but then you run into the problem that, well, you can go to Swindon and see a real one. So - take all the railway enthusiasts in the country. Now take the subset that favour the GWR. Now take the subset that think a Dean Goods is the most suitable GWR prototype to try to reproduce. Now take the subset that so desperately want to see one with steam coming from it, that going to Swindon doesn't satiate their desire. Pretty soon, you are down to an unviably small number of potential backers - and that is before you actually ask them to extract chequebook and pen...

Now, if we have to have something small and 0-6-0 shaped and from the GWR - why not go back a generation and build one of the Armstrong double-framed goods? Much more historically interesting and much more unique "wow" factor. But maybe I'm alone in liking small mid to late 19th century engines...

Tom

 

There might be a gap in the market here for a well established railway or workshop to take advantage of this youthfull enthusiasm. Imagine a new-build project but with a very strong focus on young volunteers. For all the reasons discussed in this thread and others a Dean Goods might be a good choice, both because of the relatively simple design and because of its future role on preserved lines. Or, bearing in mind Tom's comments about 'wow' factor, maybe other designs are worthy of consiseration. Young volunteers would be encouraged to take the lead in all aspects of design, build, fundraising publicity and project-mansgement but with the supervision and credibility of an established organisation behind them. It would be a way for one of these facebook dreams to come true, and the host railway would gain not only a useful locomotive but also a new generation (or two, given the likely timescale) of loco department volunteers. It would tick all the boxes for grant applications too.