Glyn Valley Tramway, Track relaying at Glynceiriog

If you had a sugar daddy with millions to spend, rebuild to the original gauge and build replicas - except of course most of your passenger carriages cannot be replicas because they will come under modern regulations.

The realistic thing to do is rebuild to 2ft 6 gauge, and no-one will care. There can be precious few people alive who remember the original railway, and you have to attract the general public. 2ft 6 gives a lot more scope to do something a bit different, there is quite a lot of stock for that gauge about whereas the demand for 2ft nominal stock is greater than the supply. Its also nearer to the original gauge if you do ever have the money to build replicas - and its usually easier to cope with a wider gauge than a narrower if you do have some existing 2ft equipment. .

 

Where is there a lot of British 2'6"? Or is the intention with 2'6 to put back another historical railway line and run Foreign stock?

 

Maybe they think the W&LLR will help a rival just down the road ...

 

(Throws idea grenade)
2'3" to go in with the Corris and Talyllyn lines? It's only about an inch out after all! The Talyllyn has some old GVT stock doesn't it?

 

It will all be foreign stock as far as the GVT is concerned. Whether 2ft or 2ft 6. Even any replicas will be different from an engineering point of view however much they are 'looky-likey' from the outside - you won't be allowed to build new locos to the original standards. Hunslet have got away with building new Quarry Hunslets because they claim to be the same firm just adding to the class (and legally that might be true) - I don't think you will be able to do that with Baldwin or Beyer-Peacock.

By all means build a railway if you want to and can get the funds to do it, but like the Welsh Highland it will be a modern tourist railway, not a 'historical railway line'. Because, even including the survivors on the Talyllyn (which now are as much a part of their history as the GVT''s) there is even less of the original left than the WHR.

Sorry to intrude with reality.

 

The new build Grange is using GWR drawings, as I assume is the county and Patriot. I'm not sure what you mean by and new GVT engines to old standards... of course you can.

As several posters have said, strange!

 

Yes, i think its a good idea!

 

They are replicas. I don't want to open up the whole 'authenticity' debate, but if you can incorporate a certain percentage of an old loco you get certain derogations. You will either be starting from scratch in which case you will need welded boiler etc., or you will take an existing loco and adapt (which some people will write as 'hack it about') into a replica.

Both might be fun, both would be attractions on a modern tourist railway, neither would be historical artefacts. They won't tell us anything radical about history unlike say the Steam Elephant or even maybe the Austerity adapted into 'Lord of the Isles'. They will be tourist attractions, and none the worse for that. No-one outside of a few rivet counters will care one iota if they are 2ft4and a half or 2ft 6.

I've already said elsewhere that if I had the money I'd buy a new Quarry Hunslet instead of an old un-restored one, because I'd want to run it, and possibly even modify it. So I have no objection whatever to replicas as long as a) they don't cannibalise existing historical objects and b) they aren't passed off as 'real'. A 'new buiId' is just that - new.

 

Just to question, what point exactly do you feel that locomotives built to the original drawings aren't 'real'? I would argue that all such replicas/new builds are real locomotives in their own right, whether they are accurate to the drawings or not. Interestingly the two examples you have cited as saying something radical about history are the two that are probably furthest removed from the original builds, one is based around an Austerity saddle tank boiler and many of its fittings and mechanical parts and the other is based on an illustration and built using modern techniques. Neither of these two examples give us much other than a flavour of what the original locomotives looked like.

 

No-one is going to build a new locomotive in a hurry because of the amount of money involved and I doubt if there is anyone around this project with the necessary readies . The loco. shown in my avatar (? right word) which I handle now and again cost around a six figure sum and is quite small as will be seen although an exceptional performer. For the pedantic it is thought of as a "new build" rather than a "replica" as it is essentially the same as the 1915 design apart from different injectors and was finished off by the company who acquired the Kerr Stuart rights. It bears their makers plates.

So if the second hand market will have to be involved then the gauge to go for is the one with the most readily available stuff. I suggest this means 60 c.m. /2ft.

P.H.

 

whilst we could argue the toss regarding gauge etc as much as we could liveries, unless im mistaken there isnt much in the way of british 2' 6", 1' 11 3/4" or even 2' 3" Steam Locos, Stock etc readily available (long term) anyway is there? TR Locomotive No.2 has just had a new riveted boiler made for it, so i don't quite follow the argument of it 'has to be welded'. I do wish you all the will in the world but if pete2hogs is part of the scheme it sounds like there isn't a great deal of experience involved here. anything is possible. just a shame that your original stock wont be able to visit, but from your posts it doesnt matter what engines run so long as they are 'real'.

cheers

AT

 

I guess it's partially a case of the scene as a whole-who benefits from 2'4.5"? Whereas the talyllyn and corris might gain, and the GVT in return, from sharing the same gauge, or the welshpool and llanfair from 2'6". Possibilities of hiring out locos or stock, creating variety in galas, never seen before combos, whereas the original gauge just seems to shut the door on co-operation with any other line and will minimise the chances of any visiting stock.

 

in 2001 TR No.7 ran with just the 2 GVT 1st Class carriages for a evening and something looked right about it alright not technically a GVT tram engine! but it still looked a awesome sight!

 

Yes, from some angles it certainly makes you think 'hmmmm'

 

Perhaps I shouldn't have said 'real' - 'Original' would have been less capable of misinterpretation. Of course they are real as opposed to fantasy. But they are 'real new builds'. In other words, they are not the real original, which most people would regard as the 'real' thing. Is that clearer?

I mean , a modern replica whatever dynasty Chinese plate is not a real whatever dynasty Chinese plate, even if it was made in China to the same design.

Even though the typical 'preserved' loco may have many new parts, it still in most cases has a continuity going back to its original self which a replica/new build doesn't have.

My point about boilers may be erroneous, but I think if you are replacing a component on an existing engine you come under different rules to a 'new' loco.

Personally I'd not go for 2.0ft because a) already lots of them and b) They have a different 'presence' to the Talyllyn or the W&L , though that might be as much to do with loading gauge as track gauge.

 

The loading gauge, axle load and curvature of a revived GVT will be a factor for aquistion or visiting 2ft 6in vehicles. From the Oakwood press book the loading gauge of the original GVT was to a maximum of 7ft 4in and 13ft 6in high (suprisingly tall), the largest fixed wheelbase on the line was 5ft 10in (the Baldwin) and the maximum permitted length for bolster wagons was 30ft.

It should be noted that the European 2ft 6in gauge vehicles (760mm) were all built to the same loading gauge and standards set by the Hapsburg/Austrian-Hungarian Military to allow vehicles to be moved around during war (which was done in WW1 and WW2) - Austrian, Hungarian, Czech, Slovakian, Bosnian, Serbian, Romanian, Bulgarian (& Finnish!) vehicles are all 2450mm (8ft) wide and upto a maximum of 3200mm (10ft 6in) tall. Just look at the W&L - the two Resita tanks, Sir Drefaldwyn, Orion (sold), the Zillertalbahn coaches (B14, B16, B17), the ex Mariazellerbahn/Waldviertalbahn/OBB coach (B27), the SKGLB coaches (C569 and C572) and the MAVs (418 & 430) all share the same profile. Two axle vehicles also had a standard 3700mm wheelbase chassis that was used on all 4w carriages, vans and wagons.
Aquistion of continental European stock is now more difficult as in the past 5 years the 'New Europe' countries such as the former Yugoslavia and Romania has realised the historical value of their narrow gauge vehicles and are restricting export licenences. There has even been a prosecution in Romania (although the circumstances have been questioned).

Looking at the rest of the W&L fleet and other 2ft 6in in the UK:
SLR85, the Sierra Leone stock (1206 & 1066), Joan, Superior, Chevallier, Conqueror, Alpha, Triumph, Superb and Monarch are 7ft 5 inches wide.
The Beyer Peacocks are 7ft wide (but with a 10ft fixed wheelbase)
The W&L heritage wagons and replica Pickerings are 6ft 6in, but their wheelbases were 5ft 6in (coal wagons), 7ft (vans) and the carriages are 37ft long over the buffers.

This leaves Dougal, Premier, Leader, Excelsior, Meilor, Siam (in Bredgar) and the Statfold 2ft 6in locos as potential visitors unless some work is done to regauge the structual loading gauge and ease the curvature on the line.

Kind regards,
Gareth

 

As far as I am aware there is no requirement for a 'new build' to have a welded boiler, riveted construction is still perfectly acceptable as long as it is either a) built to an existing drawing or b) a fully approved new design. I think what you are alluding to is that if you are undertaking an overhaul on a boiler and it needs major replacement, as long as you can utilise part of the old boiler (i.e. the steam dome) then you can classify it as a repair rather than a new build even though the bulk of the boiler is brand new construction. (however I am a little out of date with current requirements so might be mistaken...)

 

I suspect there is a deal of "received opinion" flying around as to what you can or you can't do. I have been informed in the past that "grandfather's rights" are not a convenient myth although I still suspect this is the case. Certainly there are quite a few narrow gauge engines either entirely new in themselves or running with totally new boilers.

PH

 

The problem I recall the A1 trust had with boiler grandfather rights was that historical drawings referenced material specifications that are now long forgotten (probably only recorded in an internal drawing office manual) or even product trade names belonging firms that are long gone - for e.g. if you don't know what the material spec is for 'low moor iron' how can you reverse-engineer it to retain the grandfather rights?