Open-topped coaches

Austria has a continental climate which means, within parameters, there is a fairly predictable weather pattern. Britain on the other hand is a battleground for competing systems and has "no climate, only weather". ZB tourist cars, with their sixteen droplights plus glazed ends, are atypical of Austrian n.g. stock with the more normal pattern sporting eight side windows and panelled ends. However the ZB arrangement increases the versatility of the vehicle whilst a semi open or open design reduces it.

Britons have a romantic (and rather daft) attitude to things like this as witness the fact that more convertible cars are sold here than in countries with more suitable climates despite their extra cost. Daftness is something no railway, especially heritage railway can afford!

P.H.

 

Au contraire! Daftness is the very foundation of the heritage railway movement - you wouldn't do it on pragmatic grounds!

But, being more serious: our climate is far too variable, so you'd find that you had built - at great expense - open carriages just to see them sitting unused for most of the year days. And even in summer, you can go from rain to shine within a day, so realistically you would find at times you had marshalled them into a train just to find it started raining and everyone crowded into the closed carriages - which you would have to tow around just in case. In practice, every train would be heavie rthan it needed to be. And where would you marshall them: if you put them on the back of the train (away from the cinders etc) in one direction, by definition they would be behind the engine on the return trip - unless you engaged in expensive and time consuming re-marshalling at each end of the journey.

For a line like Didcot or MOSI or Beamish, open carriages are fine. But there is a big difference between a ride at maybe 10mph for a couple of minutes, and one at 25mph for half an hour or more. There is a reason that open carriages were phased out very quickly after the 1830s, and it was as much to do with passenger comfort as safety.

Tom

 

The answer may be to run a mixture of open and covered vehicles. The East Kootenay Railway, in Fort Steele, British Columbia, where they also have very changeable weather, runs a (oil-fired) steam hauled train consisting of a flat-car fitted with seats and side rails and an ex BR mk.1! In sunny weather the open flat-car is always packed.

The down sides are, first, smuts etc. when working with coal-fired steam. This has been a problem since the earliest days- the Eastern Counties Railway had to fit roofs to their "opens" shortly after opening in 1839, due to the number of claims from ladies whose hats caught fire, big hats being part of the Essex Girl's uniform in those days! More recently, I have had to compensate people for damage to clothing when travelling on the verandas of brake-vans, so diesel (or oil-fired steam) haulage is probably the best bet for haulage of open passenger vehicles.
The other problem is people's expectations. Although I have found brake-van rides extremely popular, you still get a substantial number of passengers who ask "are you going to run the "proper" train?" The point is that many people come to heritage railways to enjoy nostalgia. We enthusiasts may look down our noses at Mk.1s, but to many visitors a ride in the sort of carriage in which they travelled to school-work-holidays etc. is an important part of the experience.

 

Agreed about the motivation. The sad thing is when they are operational, heritage railways cannot afford daftness but sometimes still persist with it. Hence the plethora (defined as "an unhealthy over-sufficiency") of express and heavy freight locomotives trundling five coaches along at 25mph, punctuated by appeals to fund their next overhaul!

Sorry to be a cynic,

Paul

 

Well, I was being a bit facaetious, so let's not go there!

I'd like to know what the fuel bill is though!

Realistically, given the changability of our weather, an open coach or two would have to be an "extra" vehicle, not an "instead of". So you might change a "loco plus four mark 1s" service to a "loco plus 4 mark 1s plus two opens of comparable weight" service. Up go your fuel bills and, potentially, your loco bill changes from "keep a class two in service" to "keep a class four in service". And that is before you have thought about the regulatory and design hurdles (and costs) of effectively chopping the top off a carriage, or building one up from a spare underframe. Oh, and you'd need to keep such carriages in a shed because they won't be watertight...

Quite feasible for somewhere like Didcot to have an open carriage or two that they can keep in the Transfer Shed and trundle up a few hundred yards of line. And also quite feasible in nice sunny Australia to have carriages where you dangle your legs over the side as you roll across a trestle viaduct. But for any line in this country of decent length, the business case doesn't stack up and, given the costs of providing and storing such carriages, I'd have thought any rational volunteer would prefer the money spent restoring and storing genuine heritage carriages.

Tom

 

There is stock operational in the UK or was until recent that was open top and working under live overhead wires.

Blackpool Tramway Toastrack cars possibly at Crich.
Other tramways such as Seaton spring to mind as well with opentops.

 

should of visited the GCR when they had golden oldies event traveling in planets or rockets carriages at speed
.

 

What would people think of a wagon (a la BHR) with seats instead of a full length/weight carriage? Granted, there would be a limited number of seats, but presumably that would reflect the limited appeal?
Most lines already have a plethora of wagons that don't do much for most of the year.
I suppose some sort of health warning that the passengers may get soot/ash from the engine on them could help.
NB - I'm thinking more of the smaller lines such as the Avon Valley where six coupled tank engines are the norm rather than a 9F dragging a train of windcutters with park benches bolted to them down the GCR...

 

You'd still have to re-marshall at each end of the trip so the open wagon was always on the back of the consist.

Tom

 

Yes you would probably have to do that.

Although, as a child (And come to think of it, as a grown up) I would absolutely LOVE to be sitting in the open, right up next to the locomotive

 

One option on longer lines that I believe one or two railways have used is to sell places on brake vans when a demonstration freight is running. That way you get the wind in your hair (and the smuts in your eyes...) and, if you can sell a dozen or so places (possibly at a premium fare), you go at least some way to recouping some of the expense of what would otherwise be a pure loss-leader. Not enough income to make it a viable daily occurrence, but certainly a possibility when you might in any case be running a freight train, for example at a gala. Also means you don't have to construct and maintain special rolling stock, nor go against the "heritage" ideals of the railway.

You obviously need one or more chaperones in addition to the regular guard to make sure the guard can conduct his proper duties un-interrupted.

Not sure what the legal / insurance issues would be if your demo freight was unfitted though.

Tom

 

Wondered about this myself.

P.

 

When we started carrying passengers in brake vans, 24 years ago, the operation was approved by the late Maj. Olver, HMRI. His instructions were as follows- All vehicles to be vacuum fitted. Last 'van to be fitted with vacuum brake (not "piped") and staffed by a guard who must be physically separated, with a fence or barrier, from the passengers (to avoid distraction) and be able to operate the vacuum brake valve and handbrake at all times. Other vehicles carrying passengers to be in the charge of a responsible person.
The only "open veranda" brake van that could be easily adapted for this purpose was a GW Toad. We still use this arrangement.

The answer to the question is- non-fitted is a no-no and as many vehicles as possible should be fully-fitted, i.e. not "blow-throughs".

 

The Sittingbourne & Kemsley narrow gauge railway used to run open trucks on some of their trains it was a great ride untill it went past the sewerage works.

 

Many years ago (1969?) I went on a university organised visit to the Leighton Buzzard Railway, or Iron Horse Railway, as it was then known. They were using the De Winton for the passenger service, which only went part way. We were told that we could have a trip over the full length of the line after passenger services finished but they couldn't take the De Winton because of the state of the track so it would have to be with a Simplex diesel. (The De Winton was unsprung, from memory.) This duly happened and the train consisted of a bogie flat wagon with some upright chairs place upon it; not fastened down in any way. It was a very pleasant journey, apart from being attacked by brambles in places where the hedgerow came close! I remember that when we got to Stonehenge there was a problem with the Simplex so the crew simply swapped it for one of the Arnold ones parked up there.

It was all good fun in those days......

 

Interesting to hear that a practical case was looked into.

The lines I'd travelled in France:

a) Were diesel-hauled, so as per my previous postings the problem with ash/soot/sparks are not an issue
b) Had enough extra covered capacity to cope with the influx of passengers should there be a downpour
c) Used lightweight 4w vehicles
d) Issued tickets for the specific vehicle - you took your choice and paid your money. It wasn't a scrum to get on because they pre-sold the tickets at a premium
e) Operated in better climates than the UK so probably had a longer possible operating season
f) Travelled at 20mph I'd estimate and was quite pleasant, but the weather was good and in light rain or a chilly day I can see it being unpleasant

I still imagine that there's a place for them in some situations on some lines as excursions - interesting to see that the responses have ranged from the "no, could never be done" to "possibly - would have to look at the business case". I'm a believer that every opportunity for creative thinking in gaining passengers should be looked investigated to some degree. Perhaps the financials don't stack up in some places, but maybe they could give food for thought somewhere.

 

Something that nobody has picked up on in this thread is that 'heritage' diesels do have an unfortunate habit of throwing oil from their exhausts. Frankly I would soil my underwear laughing at an open carriage load of teenage Class 37 spotters screaming at the driver to deliver some of their beloved 'thrash' and 'clag', only to return looking like human Dalmations.

However, this entertaining thought aside, the only type of traction which you can absolutely guarantee won't give Mr & Mrs Average and their 2.4 little darlings a nice dose of cinders/sparks/oily water/oil has to be electrically powered.

 

Ah, like this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/johnmightycat/5638573239/ (not my photo)

Tom

 

I did manage this last year from a veranda...
KOYLI at the NVR Diesel Gala - YouTube
pure magic!!