6201: 75th anniversary of speed record Special To Glasgow!!!

Possibly because during the Great Britain and West Highlander WCRC had a diesel handy in Scotland, whereas in mid-November there probably isn't one and so Tyseley have to take their own. Hopefully the diesel will be idling or in notch 1 for the whole trip (as with 5043 last year). Personally I don't understand why purists like Frank are so against diesel dragging. If anything it just adds more dead weight to 6201 to make the run more exciting.

 

We have a choice and exercise it - others may not agree, but that's their prerogative.

A steam train is just that - steam.

I'm not as hard line as some, but I can certainly see where they are coming from. This is another case of the market saying "Buy what we are selling and like it" and the market saying "Pardon"

 

A steam train dragging a diesel is still a steam train. The train locomotive is steam powered and the diesel on the back is doing nothing but ticking over to provide air for its brakes. As campainr has stated if anything all the diesel on the back will do is add a bit more load which I'm sure 6201 will happily cope with. I understand that people have a choice but I personally do not see a problem with this. I believe its actually a case of VT trying to provide a workable excursion at a reasonable price. I would be interested to see how the figures would add up if you looked at the lost revenue due to people not travelling as a result of a diesel being dragged on the back compared to the potential lost revenue of people not travelling as they couldnt afford the cost of the tour if additional diesel paths and crewing were required?

 

A 47 on the back of todays castle certainly didn't make itself known... i heard the castle a mile away.. it flew through the station and the 47 was silent.

 

I don't think the diesel provides air for brakes, surely the steam loco's own ejector/compressor does that? The only thing a diesel might do is provide ETH for the train, though surely Frank will not like the idea of that!

 

If the train is running in vacuum which it will be as the vt rake contains vac only mk2s there is no through air connection to provide air to the diesel on the back which it requires to operate its brakes. Therefore the diesel needs to be running to keep its own air supply up.

 

Ah yes sorry. By "providing air for its brakes" I thought you meant the steam loco and not the diesel itself!

 

Firstly 8RPH is entirely correct in his summary of why the diesel is running.

When we plan a train to run on Network Rail the factors that we very much take into account is to try to plan an operation which can be seen as sensible and achievable rather than pushing operations to the extreme in order to provide grounds for subsequent proud boasts. One thing that is certain is that we do not gratuitously place our 47 on the back of the train for the fun of it, as it comes with a price of several hundred gallons of diesel fuel and the inevitable attrition of the mileage accumulated by the 47, as well as bringing additional crew charges from West Coast for the provision of a driver. It is kind of Frank to put words in our mouth by saying "Buy what we are selling and like it" but it is very much our view that we offer a product which we believe is as reliable as we can make it and we would not expect people to buy our product if they don't like it. Perhaps Frank would like to tell us all how many times he has patronised Vintage Trains services. I don't know how many times he has turned out to watch them, but that is not of our concern as we do not set oiut to provide a free spectator activity, that is a very short term commercial activity. I have to say that I personally do not understand the pedantry involved in all of this. As an instance we were as most know, asked by WCR to put a diesel at the back of last years S&C run by 5043 due to leaf fall issues. By great good fortune the weather was kind and it was ultimately not needed. Nevertheless we were aware that some passengers may have issues with this with perceived intervention by the 47 and so took the view that we would require Mr Notley to ride on the diesel as umpire and all round honest broker. The results are now well known. There are those who allege that they will not be able to hear the steam loco from the back because of the diesel, but I would counter this with Mike Notley's recollection of sitting on a diesel 10 coaches behind 5043 listening to the exhaust drowning out the sound of the very diesel he was sitting in. As others have already commented the diesel does little more than add to the load, and on the 16th October last year that additional load contributed to all the passengers on the train being there and able to witness what has been claimed (by others) as the highest ever power output from a Castle. Given this I do have to say that I have grave difficulty understanding what appears to be
a rather irrational mental block on this issue.

Regards
Bob Meanley

 

Don't worry yourself about Frank's comments Bob. The majority of us understand that if a diesel is required it is required and must get all the way to Scotland somehow.

 

Richard,

Thanks for this, and I must apologise if I have given anyone the mistaken impression that I was in any way worried about Frank's comments. Just nice to be able to correct mistaken beliefs.

regards
Bob

 

I think, with regard to diesels on the back the back that in some cases it is the most expedient thing to do.

Firstly paths for light engines don't appear out of thin air and come with a considerable cost. This has to be absorbed by the ticket buyer ultimately. On this tour that would presumably be a 0Zxx from Carnforth-Glasgow and return. Not cheap, and on the modern railway not always easy to plan. Getting one extra train in and out of Glasgow Central is hard enough. We (DRS) have found that out over the last 8 months going in reguarly with the 'Cruise Liner' expresses.

Added to that of course is the risk/path of the actual charter. I believe steam could well do with a 6 month run of trouble free operation. What better way to gaurantee to the powers that bee at Leeds or Milton Keynes that steam can be trusted. Performance at this time of year is right at the forefront of everybodys minds. Autumn is taken very seriously and everyone at Network Rail is under the microscope. I know this because for the last 10 years I've been driving around the North of England at night with RHTT sets working to very strict NDS guidelines. However there was an occasion last October between Appleby and Ais Gill where I lost half an hour due to making sure the rail head was absolutely spotless for a certain dark green engine!:smile: Think it paid off!!!:angel:

Anyway I think VT/WCRC on this occasion have made absoluety the right call given operation cost, logistics and time of year. I hope it goes really well and as its not an Eastern engine coming up I'll ask the lads on the NWRHTT to give Milnthorpe-Shap and extra blast!!

Mike Wylie

 

People travel on steam trains for a whole host of reasons. One group of people are “train timers” whose primary reason for travelling is to monitor the performance of the steam locomotive by logging times and speeds at various stages of the journey and ultimately use these to calculate the output of the locomotive. This activity is as old as the steam locomotive itself. Of critical importance in these calculations is the train weight. Diesels on the rear introduce variables that affect the weight being pulled depending on how the diesel is used (if at all). If dead there is traction motor resistance, if its engine is running is it in neutral or notch 1 or higher. Does it propel trains away from stops, up hills and so on. The timer is therefore unaware of the actual weight the steam loco is pulling at anyone time and therefore is unable to make meaningful decisions and comparisons. To the timer the presence of a diesel on the back of the train is as frustrating to one on the front would be to the photographer. Would photographers turn out if the assisting diesel regularly appeared on the front. Of course not but they can just walk away. Timers have paid the train fare only to be disappointed on the day though many do walk away. People may say promoters don’t run trains for the benefit of timers and that could be a fair argument (although like everything it has its pro’s and con’s) but if timing is the steam enthusiasts passion then they have to let trains that have diesels on the back and on which they would otherwise have booked pass them by, clearly a “lose - lose” situation. For the timer it is a case of doing a “risk assessment” before they book.

 

For the West Highlander, the diesel (37706) passed the train light engine whilst the latter was watering at Penrith. I wasn't on this year's Great Britain, but on GB1, the diesel ran light engine from Penzance to Georgemas Junction!

 

Before the advent of bi-directional units, I am assured there was a plethora of diesels waiting patiently at terminus stations to drag trains in and out; before the diesels, there were Panniers.

I'm afraid that now history.

TBirdFrank - you must be saving boatloads of money but not going on railtours that involve a Diesel!

PS - We had our 47 on the back on Saturday. It didn't seem to dull the enjoyment of the 100+ guests on-board in each direction. It didn’t seem to dull the Castle’s enthusiastic bark either!

 

We all understand that each passenger has a different set of expectations from a railtour. We do our best to accommodate as many people as we can.

Please understand that we do not take a diesel just to annoy people - when we do it is out of necessity. As Bob defines in an earlier post, there are many compelling reasons not to take a diesel.

Diesel or not, we hope to see as many people as possible on this or future tours!

Regards.

Ben

 

Sorry if pointing out what part of the market actually feels raises hackles - but that's the truth - 6.05 Special explains that in part, the aspergers candidates however, seem to have missed the part where I said that I am not as hard line as some. The market today is more and more being told what to buy in many fields rather than the market providing what the customer actually wants. I wonder how long it will be before that changes. I have spent all this week and covered around 600 miles writing a complex paper for a preservation business about increasing revenue by playing to the market - its a message who's time will come - all round.

Attempts to demean a discussion by throwing in the old "how many tours do you go on?" is an old and hoary line. I could always ask how many hours have you spent working for the cause, doing what? or how much have you spent on actual restoration in whatever field - but I don't need to. My history and contribution over now forty five years will stand alongside anyone's - but its calibre and quantity is my business. Yes - I tote a camera, but when I am out and about you won't need to ask - as my machinery always causes a stir, and a welcome from other transport enthusiasts who recognise a worthwhile contribution, whether on the road, on a rally field, or on the lineside.

 

What a shocking response from someone who is supposed to be promoting steam railtours.

How Frank or anyone spends their money is their concern.

In a free Market Economy it is up to a seller - and yes Ben that is what you are supposed to be- to provide a product that people wish to buy.

I may also mention that, as a past customer (note not guest) of VT I rang up to book a tour some while ago that was in a brochure you sent me. One question I asked when trying to make the telephone booking was " What time is the tour likely to start" (It was not in the brochure). I was told, most condescendingly that "VT do not give out lineside timings" and that "If I booked on the tour timings would be sent with my ticket" At that stage my money stayed in my wallet! Thus saving me 'a bucket load of money'.

I am afraid that from many of the postings on this forum many at VT suffer from a somewhat supercilious attitude.l

 

Am I missing something? As long as the diesel isn't shoving and its at the back, whats the problem? Its only a heavy genny set. Also with regard to train timing, the diesel is an accurate thing to measure, its exact weight, give or take a few lbs for fuel is written on the side. Traction motor drag is hardly worth writing about. There are many more important variables that will make a train timers plan undoe such as regulator and reverser postions, driver attitude, ability of the fireman, TSRs and ESR's etc etc Traction motor drag should be the least of your worries.

Mike Wylie

 

Please can Bob or Ben clarify exactly why the diesel needs to be attached for the steam section? There have been several suggestions from other people but, as far as I can see, no statement from the people who actually know, other than the brief statement from Ben "We will need the 47 for ECS and turning in Glasgow." which doesn't explain why it can't run light engine from Crewe to Glasgow.