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Discussion in 'What's Going On' started by SpudUk, Jul 29, 2009.

  1. Ben Jervis

    Ben Jervis Member

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    There are a fair few of us in the Chippenham, Bath and Bristol areas. I'm from the Chippenham area so I will probably bump into one day! :)

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  2. arthur maunsell

    arthur maunsell Well-Known Member

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    Indeed Sir. It was BR Western Region I believe?

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    no, it wasnt....
     
  3. 60017

    60017 Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Indeed Sir. It was BR Western Region I believe?

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    no, it wasnt....[/quote:1f0czp7a]

    Come on then Arthur .......spill the beans !
     
  4. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Sorry to intrude chaps but as any right minded enthusiast knows, GWR stands for Gresley Was Right. \:D/
     
  5. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Indeed Sir. It was BR Western Region I believe?

    [ Post made via Mobile Device ] [​IMG][/quote:dqzhfgft]

    no, it wasnt....[/quote:dqzhfgft]

    When the regional boundaries changed and BR(W) took over BR(M) responsibility of the line they set about diverting traffic off of the S&D. The death knell came arguably in 1962 with the diversion of all through trains away from the S&D. Amazingly the locals which ran as feeder services out of the Pines still continued to run. Thus after the traffic was diverted you has the completely wasteful practice of a local chuffing out of the sidings at Evercreech Jct. and running to intermediate stations just as it had always done. The fact that there were no longer any passengers detraining from a non existed Pines and therefor rendering this connecting completely useless was either lost on the management or they deliberately continued with the service in order to make a financial case for closure. Hardly any economies were made, steam remained until the end whereas dieselisation of services my have mad a difference. Towards the end there were also strange timetabling decisions where anyone wanting to make a through journey on the S&D would have to change trains at Templecombe with a very long wait. If this wasn't designed to drive passengers away then I'm the King Of China.
     
  6. Steamage

    Steamage Part of the furniture

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    The situation at Templecombe was worse than that in the final years. BR(W) altered the times of departures from Templecombe to miss connections with trains on the Exeter - Salisbury line. When the old LSW route also came under Western Region control, they changed the timings on that line, too, to prevent connections. When Swindon discovered that S&D and LSW crews were waiting beyond their booked times to try to make connections, guards and drivers were "carpeted" and threatened by Western Region (ex GWR) management. There was no love lost between former employees of the old rivals. Peter Smith (former S&D fireman and driver) tells a few such tales in his autobiography.

    I've never seen any defence of WR's treatment of the S&D and LSW routes. I suppose WR management thought that by closing them, they'd get more traffic on ex-GW lines, so wouldn't have to make so many cuts on those routes. All that actually happened was that the traffic went onto the roads instead.

    In the interests of balance, I have to say that I have heard GW fans bemoaning the treatment of ex-GWR routes at the hands of BR London Midland management, too. What does it say about us, though, that we still feel sore about these old injustices?
     
  7. royals pete

    royals pete Member

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    Some real authority on the closure reasons, chaps, and I'm certainly not in a position to object. I've had a long glimpse at Google on the Wikipedia etc, to fill some info gaps for me and as their final decision was with Beeching, it seems that the rerouting and poor timetabling was probably in line with other notable railways (I'm thinking Settle and Carlisle bust up) . It must have been a demoralising exercize...planning to FAIL !!!!
     
  8. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Regional managments killing off an old rival after the boundary changes was pretty widespread so it's unfair to single out the Western Region over the S&D, look at how the Midland pretty much obliterated the Paddington - High Wycombe - Snow Hill - Wolves - Chester route, which in current times would of proved most conveniant to as least two operators now on what's left of the route.

    I think it's fair to say we've wandered off topic somewhat 8-[
     
  9. arthur maunsell

    arthur maunsell Well-Known Member

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    the northern section of the S&D was transferred to the WR when it was already dying...they didnt really want it and the through traffic could be worked more easily and economically over other WR/SR lines. Thus it was a victim of Nationalisation and the boom in road travel. There is no villain of the piece
     
  10. SpudUk

    SpudUk Well-Known Member

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    Yeey! I was hoping I could find some steam heads in my soon to be future home!

    Ok, maybe it wasn't the GWR...maybe I am confusing that with the closure of the Barnstaple line or one of the other ones my Father raised me to recent the GWR for getting involved with...there was one line beloved by my father that the GWR had a hand in closing anyways...somewhere down in the South West.

    And I have to admit, that despite his efforts I do sort of find GWR locomotives pleasant to look at, very regal in a way...even though I concur that after the 1920s they seemed to just stop designing!
     
  11. SpudUk

    SpudUk Well-Known Member

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    Didn't Ivo Peters and his eminante video on the S&D have a hand, proving beyond doubt that the road was much more efficient then the line, with Peters being able to film the same train along the entire route at various different locations?

    I am now 100% sure its not the S&D Father was talking about...maybe the Barnstaple line? Not sure now....I am open to suggestions as to which line in the South-West the GWR had a hand in closing/disrupting...I could be totally barking up the wrong tree...
     
  12. James

    James Part of the furniture

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    Almost the entire LSWR network west of Exeter, including the mainline to Plymouth via Okehampton and Tavistock, the North Cornwall Railway to Wadebridge and Padstow, the Ilfracombe, Bude, and Torrington lines, and they even tried to shut the mainline west of Salisbury...thankfully they only managed to single it, something that is rather expensively being rectified in stages to this very day. Oh and the Lyme Regis, Seaton, Sidmouth, and Budleigh Salterton branches.
     
  13. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Of course Beeching would have been involved and there's no way of telling what the end result would have been if sensible economies had been made on the S&D but with the diverting of both freight and passenger traffic away from the line it was as good as doomed once the bad Doctor came on the scene. Railways were struggling against road competition but no line stood a chance with management staging a deliberate run down.
     
  14. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Ivo's films may have shown road to be quicker - not the same as efficiency - but some of his multiple shots of trains were achieved by some lively driving by all accounts.
     
  15. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Bit unfair to include the Branches James as these were being closed all over the west, regardless of region, i certainly can't recall Fowey (passenger), Kingswear, Brixham, Ashburton, Heathfield, Kingsbridge, Bodmin, Minehead, Tiverton, Taunton - Barnstaple to name a few being on the National rail network today.
     
  16. Ben Jervis

    Ben Jervis Member

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    They don't just look good, but they sound good too!!! \:D/
     
  17. royals pete

    royals pete Member

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    This thread has digressed a bit since SPUDUK asked a question but thats great, and hopefully he will be converted to actually like GWR before very long. BUT, as there are experts on here, can anyone pinpoint whether GWR engines actually ever used the line or did the responsibility change come too late for that ????
     
  18. DH34105

    DH34105 Member

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    What a wide ranging discussion !!

    There are many tales told about the run down of the S and D and some have been included in comments above. There was certainly some what can only be described as " creative accounting" about the line towards the end and there were undoubtedly some very doubtful moves behind the scenes to run things down, that have been very well documented elsewhere. Things could and should have been organised better as far as the revised passenger serves were concerned after the Pines went and perhaps the line would still have been with us today - however the fact remains that with steam it was not the cheapest of lines to run especially with a lot of double heading over the Mendips with the Pines and other heavy trains. It probably did not help that the Radstock area coalfield was running down as well. I remember as a teenager taking part in surveys for the Bournemouth Railway Club at Poole and other locations and often on a Saturday the S and D local passenger trains were very well loaded. sadly my notes of those days were lost many moons ago but I can remember the surveys well. This was after the Pines was diverted to run through Oxford and Reading. Memories of a Saturday afternoon on Parkstone station watching the S and D trains stand out from the others the way their crews stormed up the bank. The noise from a Standard 5 or 9 climbing at speed with one of the Branksome Drivers at the regulator remains with me to the present - wonderful!! They were driven very vigorously!!

    Anyway I have wandered from the question I came to answer about GWR locos on the S and D - Certainly the 2251 0 6 0 tender engines worked from Templecombe for several years and 5700 panniers from there and Bath. Ivo Peters and colleagues took many pictures of them. I certainly saw both of those types at work on the S and D.

    There were visits to Bath green park by some of the larger tender engines but width over cylinders prevented them using the S and D which was tight in places. I think that 56xx tanks were tried on the Northern Section of the Line but cannot remember now if Ivo peters published photos of them - WD 2 8 0's were also tried but did not live up to the reputation of the S and D 2 8 0's

    Hope that helps add a bit more to the thread

    DH
     
  19. Ben Jervis

    Ben Jervis Member

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    I believe that a few of the smaller GWR engines did work on certain parts of the S&D, including the 0-6-0 tender engines (22XX class I think, I may be wrong). I've also seen a picture of a Castle at Bath Green Park with a special train although it didn't travel over the S&D as far as I know.

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  20. royals pete

    royals pete Member

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    Thanks Ben and DH for the comments. Amazing what a little jog of the memory can do for everyone !!! Just wish I could remember wat I did yesterday !! When I posed the question on GWR engines, I was hoping you would say they had been on the S & D because I'm sure I had seen photos although the main visions are of the heavy summer trains being double headed. I wonder if we have any enginemen who worked the line on here...they could give us a little of their experience and what it was like day to day running . Or maybe that WOULD be digressing too much ???!!!
     

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