Lynton and Barnstaple - Operations and Development

While we are on the subject of other Bristol W&C rolling stock, I have been looking at this from the Cyprus Government Railway

 

It is not only the length of the platform, but also the size and power of the steam locomotives in use. I am not sure where the idea came from in the first place, but my understanding has always been that we need to aim to be able to run seven-coach train sets in the future.

Stations:-

The new Lynton station: this could be built from the word go for 7-coach sets, but as the old station had a main platform of 306 ft and a loop of 360ft, it would have been long enough to hold a seven-coach train and a locomotive.

Caffyns Halt is only 132 ft, but I would suggest that there might be space to extend, subject to the ruling gradient, and a new survey may be required. Changes to the alignment to get under the A39 going to Lynton may present us with a new challenge.

Woody Bay: this station currently only has platforms of 214 ft, but the loop is 438 ft. As I understand it, ENPA have indicated in the past that once through trains run between Lynton and Blackmoor, they expect this station to return to something like its condition as it was in 1935, but with modern amenities, whatever that means.

Parracombe had one platform; and since it is a sensitive subject, I won't say any more right now.

Blackmoor had one platform of 216 ft, but with a loop of 428 ft, the second platform was 186ft. I am sure that many moons ago a new, longer platform was suggested and has been considered. More so if the alignment was to be changed at Blackmoor.

Bratton Fleming: Two platforms, each 204ft in length, with a loop of 416 ft; again, I think it had been suggested in the past that the loop could be extended to hold a seven-coach train set and a locomotive.

Chelfham platform 1 is 221 ft, and platform 2 is 165 ft; again, I am sure that it has been suggested in the past that a platform extension at the Lynton end might be possible, subject to a survey and land ownership. I think that the shelf that the railway sits on at this point is wide enough to allow this to happen.

I now come on to Snapper as the last bit of the current rebuild for now. It had just one platform of 132ft. I am not aware of any current plans or thoughts about how to develop this site, but I would ask: is there enough space to build a run round/passing loop here, as this would need to act as the temporary Barnstaple end of the line for now? I am sure that there is, but I don't know for certain.

All the above information came from my copy of the Brown, Prideaux and Radcliffe book, so it is not a secret. The only bit of information that I don't have is whether there is now a need for a minimum length of clear track from the end of the platform to the end of the loop or the start of the point work.

 

All in the notion of making the L&B something it never was and you loose the charm of the Little Train to Lynton. Some of the stations may be able to have longer platforms but to be honest, as soon as you do that, you loose that uniqueness and charm. You would no longer have the look and feel of what the L&B was with long rakes that ran only a few times on very special occasions and large engines in the need to haul higher tonnage.

It's great to discuss the possibilities, how it could become the WHR of Devon, but in reality you would kill everything unique about the L&B, and it's that uniqueness that brings people in and it is very much noticed, even by tourists who may not be railway nuts. You would no longer be telling the story of the L&B, showing how it was, and the experience of taking that Little Train to Lynton for the very defined period the line was open originally.

Yes, perhaps in the future we could design modern build carriages based on the heritage carriage look and feel, but personally I think trying to make corridor carriages, and fancy combinations of kitchens, loos and various other options for comfort (all already been thought on and some drawn up here at East Group), is in truth diluting what the L&B is all about.

Each train becomes more costly to run, in fuel, decreased carriage capacity, extra train crew, especially if providing catering in board in that you need more staff per train and trackside staff to make the food etc, each lengthened platform means more land to buy, build and then upkeep.

I can also understand the comment made sometimes about creating carriages that may have been if SR had continued...but they didn't. The L&B has a defined period of running, and that ceased when it closed, anything else is fantasy in my view and no longer L&B.

I think it's far better to keep to the format we know, and listen to the great feedback we get on how it's not a ramshackle collection of stuff from elsewhere, not messed about with, with original carriages and engines, the stations recreated as much as possible to reflect how they were, a recreation of a railway full of charm, the real deal and a railway North Devon can be proud of.

We don't need to copycat other railways or collections, and indeed I think it would be a mistake.

 

I am going to give one exception to what I have put above.

The Thorpe Park carriages served a purpose, and very well at Woody Bay, until the heritage carriages became available.

Any extension, or new area such as Blackmoor, that becomes available to run trains, as a stop gap, and until it is possible to run a heritage rake, something similar to the Thorpe Park carriages could be used.

But the overall aim is eventually to have heritage trains running.

 

I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark here Colin, and suggest that no-one else has ever seriously suggested 7 coach trains, extending platforms and bringing in larger locos from around the world except you. I've certainly never seen it suggested except under your username.

I really wish you would stop with these ridiculous suggestions. As @DaveE has said above, the L&B was defined by its quaint stations, Victorian carriages and MW locos. To deviate away from that means you are not recreating the L&B.

You need to decide what you support - the recreation of the L&B as it was (as far as possible), or the establishment of a steam railway as per the WHR with modern stock and large locos with no connection to the original railway.

You can't have it both ways.

Pick a side.

 

To be fair, as I have mentioned previously, there was some discussion during the Phase 2A design about (a) the probable desirability of allowing for trains longer than 5 coaches and hence therefore (b) the need to have platforms of equivalent length to satify modern regulations. Were I to dig back far enough into my mailbox I might well find some of the relevant material. However the type of motive power and rolling stock never formed any part of those discussions.

In the end - as was sadly the case with so much of Phase 2A - the absence of any formal statement of Operational Requirements meant that, with no firm idea of what would actually be required, the discussions were essentially theoretical and centred mainly around 'possible options' and hence 'possible solutions'. Fo example, I can vaguely recall some measurements being taken at WB with regard to a northward extension of the Up platform to accommodate at least one extra coach.

Given that Lynton and 'Pilton' will be completely new stations, and effecctively the same at Blackmoor given the relocation to the West, then there might well be a good argument to say that at least build those stations 'ready' for longer trains and leave the matter of the other, older locations to a future date.

 

A true re-creation of the Lynton and Barnstaple I believe will bring people from far and wide due to it's unique Victorianness, location, motive power and whatever the hard to define Exmoor vibe is.
Every other railway I can think of has some foreign and eclectic locomotives and rolling stock, apart from the Manx and Corris, so the pure re-creation will be quite a claim.
However, if you don't have visiting 'star' locos, it is hard to have a gala, other than an 'all four in steam all weekend' affair.
That being the case, whilst I firmly believe it will draw people from all over, it won't be more than 5 carriage loads, 3 times a day.
I would suggest that in due course the railway will have a need for 8 authentic carriages, which could be run 4 and 4, or 5 and 3, or even 3,3,2 for that gala.
Presumably it has been considered already... but building 3 carriages which are properly wheelchair accessible in a couple of compartments, with powered lifts/ramps or whatever hidden in trad. looking bodywork might be the next sensible step.
None of us are getting younger

 

There has indeed been thought put to the design of a wheelchair accessible heritage style carriage based on an open centre third such as Number 7.

To the outside it looks very much the same except the centre has two half height doors which both open to enable a wheelchair to board. Where the inner doors are would be a large opening or double doors to either side where there are wheelchair lockdowns and seats for accompanying carers.

The reason this was thought about was due to the Calvert Trust and their package holidays for disabled children. Part of their package could be a train ride to the Calvert Trust centre from Blackmoor Station, and at the end of the holiday a return journey to Blackmoor Station to board their coach or minibus home. Depending on the criteria set by grant bodies we may be able to get a grant for any such carriage.

At the moment on any one train where both brakes are used there is capacity for four wheelchairs accessible through the luggage compartments and via a fold back system of doors which brings the wheelchair inside a third class compartment at a position which is almost the same as an able bodied person in a fixed seat in relation to door and window. The feel and ride is then the same and some wheelchair users in the past have made the comment that it was great to ride in a compartment rather than just put in the brake van for the journey.

Powered ramps? I don't think that would be needed, infact nearly all the stations I know on Network Rail still use a manually placed ramp, usually locked in a cabinet on the platform while not in use.

 

I think accessibility carriage(s) are an excellent idea, and can be delivered in a highly authentic way. This idea works, though I'm not 100% sure that using an open carriage will necessarily go down brilliantly when the weather's not brilliant.

However, that general observation leads to some more general thoughts prompted by mention of the Calvert Trust.

The first is that the Calvert Trust have recently announced that Calvert Devon is closing shortly (see announcement). That makes discussion of possible options some time in the future moot (though obviously whoever take on the site from the Calvert Trust may have their own offerings)

The second is about the role of grants. To declare an interest, I've been on a panel that has given Calvert some small grants for equipment. Grants are hard (increasingly so) to come by, and very focused. I can see how a grant might be forthcoming from the right organisation for "access for all" or similar. I find it much harder to see how tying such a grant to one organisation to provision for another organisation would succeed.

That leads to the third thought. I've had the privilege of hearing from Calvert team members about how they organise trips and events, including the care required due to the needs of their visitors. Being blunt, I'm struggling to see how that would fit in with taking a party of disabled children to a station not at the accommodation, loading them for a ~5 minute train trip, and then transferring them to the transport that's quite possibly already at the accommodation. If I'm remembering carriage 7 right, I suspect we're talking about 2 chairs max? I'm also seeing difficulties for many of those groups (some of which I have also had the privilege of witnessing describe how they plan trips for the young people they look after) paying pay extra for this, when both their own and their clients' budgets are incredibly tight (for reference, applications to the charity I'm involved with were 15 times the available funds this year).

 

If the Calvert Trust is going to close, that's incredibly sad. And these carriages were not thought up recently, 10 years ago and more we were talking about disabled carriages and the possible designs.

Also, the open centre section isn't used for sitting in unless someone wants to. The main idea is the centre section is used as access to either side through the inner doors the inside of the carriage, those doors would be wide enough for a wheelchair to go though. The inside of those two compartments would not have the usual seating but fitted out with lock down rails and seating for carers.

I'm surprised that the thought of transfer from road transport to train transport would be seen as a huge challenge when you consider the sports and activities they do at the Calvert Trust. Some may not be able to due to severe disability but many I think would be able to and for them ,the experience of a train ride could make their holiday.

All mute now if they are going to close and no point discussing further.

But with regard to the initial question, yes thought has been put to disabled carriages and disabled access in the carriages we have has already been created.

 

I agree on Calvert Devon's closure

For clarity, the issue is not disabled children riding on trains - I completely agree with you on what they are capable of. My comment was about how the group logistics would work, especially on a changeover day where time is usually at a premium, and for a very short hop journey.

More important, it's good to know the thinking's been done and that ideas exist that could be dusted off when the time is right.

 

I suspect the idea of being able to get on a train at Pilton and take a much longer ride to Blackmoor to pick up road transport to the Calvert (rather than making their way from Wistlandpound) might have much greater appeal

As for ramps, having struggled in the past to manhandle ramps for passengers getting on/off carriages on the WSR, I would welcome some power assistance !