North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

If you were attending an event as far away as Yorkshire in one of your "projects" the chances are you'd be approaching Whitby (or Pickering) on the back of a rac lorry so wouldnt have to worry about parking anyway.

 

I take your point, but it's a pretty universal one across all types of special event, but usually here are multiple different types of visitor to them all - broadly, participants, "committed" spectators and curious spectators accidental onlookers, and usually the place is heaving! The NYMR isn't looking to attract them all onto its trains, and because the town is so busy there really ought to be enough willing to indulge in a train trip - if only there is one on offer. As a recent former GM once said to me, "we shouldn't be afraid to take a risk and try things for the first time". But the NYMR seems to have lost that ability, and we need it back.

 

On the point of providing a service as a 'park and ride' as a heritage line, personally, I will always look to use the train if one is available. I appreciate I am an enthusiast, but there must be others of a similar mind.

With a brief mention of my local Bluebell, there are often passengers who take the train to East Grinstead from Sheffield Park and then come back having visited the town. It would be quicker and cheaper to drive to East Grinstead. It's exactly the same situation with Whitby, but much more pronounced. I'm visiting Wales soon, and want to walk up one side of Snowdon and down the other. The bus provides a much better service than the Welsh Highland Railway, but I want to take the train as part of the package of the excitement that day. So I've worked out how to make it work. People like riding on (steam) trains, and it doesn't have to be the quickest or cheapest option. They will make their plan work so they can have a ride on the train, even if that's not their main aim for the day.

In other news, today we're on loco roster V3 https://www.nymr.co.uk/media/ykgpqspb/290726-003.pdf
Has the autocar sat down? 1640 ex Grosmont was canned.

 

In relation to flexibility, trying new things and events that people may want more time at but combine with a Heritage rail trip, questions for those who are more familiar with NYMR Past & Present:

Did there ever used to be an evening Diner (or similar) that operated to Whitby and are there paths for such a thing now on the NR bit?

I'm thinking if there are events where people may want to combine the train and Event X in Whitby that ends later, could you add a later return ad hoc or have a diner that you swap to a service train on certain days, as you wouldn't run a diner on a Thomas day

 

I guess you can try to work out if there are paths at a time you think is suitable from looking at RTT.
But it will come down to resources. I have no idea how many boxes you would need to keep open. Is the diner volunteer crewed or paid staff?
Presumably after all the diesel negativity on here you would be proposing steam for this. How many would want to be disposing of the loco after midnight.

As we were talking about Goth weekend, look at the schedule and decide when to run your train 23:00, 0001?

https://thelittleblackalmanac.co.uk/the-official-whitby-goth-weekend-guide-2/

 

Yes I know you could look on RTT for paths and such but I was wandering if they had done it in the past. I know all volunteer based places are struggling for people and the NYMR does not seem to be an exception but just thinking generally if they wanted do do it infrequently as an option. If going to be planned long enough in advance you could do advertising with the event (something like the queues and see the views travel to event X on the NYMR and you could have later ones just being a Diesel. I'd say DMU but I know they don't have a Whitby capable one at the moment. Where I volunteer we run a DMU late (or a DMU as well as the main train that is part of the event) to ensure people can get home easier when we run a less rail based event, but that is us running the whole thing. I know it is WIBN for the NYMR, it was just a pondering and wandering what had been done in the past.

 

@5944’s post and my response seem to have sparked a lot of comment. I used the term park and ride and period shouldn’t have. What I think both of us are saying is than opportunity has been missed. The end of October is unlikely to be a time when normal trains are filled to capacity but the Goth weekend is an event that could easily make that happen. A lot of people visit just to see the sights that the weekend provides. They certainly aren’t Goths (and that includes me and SWMBO) and they don’t stay into the late evening, either. And contrary to what some might think, some Goths and Steam Punk people do ride on the trains.

 

Quite so. Everyone tends to focus on specifics of language or organisational details, but the reality is that there are potential opportunities there, and the NYMR doesn't seem to have a clue about ideas for taking advantage of them. Forget specifics, my criticisms are of the approach in general.

 

Yes that is what I was trying to ask I suppose in enquiring about historic later trains. If there is history of running later trains to Whitby. It may not be possible and looking at the end to end, plus run-round times you aren't going to get a frequent enough service to get everyone to add the NYMR to the day, but that isn't what you are after. One train doing a round trip or 2 after the normal trains (as well as running on the day involved) to catch a market you might otherwise miss seems logical. Now each line has their own oddities and so it may not be possible (Paths on and stock for the Mainline bit being one of the obvious potential NYMR issues) so I may be missing the point but it is a discussion forum and it is interesting to learn good and band points from other lines.

 

I don't know if I can answer your query as such but I can offer some history..

The Pullman Diner set used to be able to go to Whitby but not sure the last time it did. The carriages in question are all listed on the CDL exception. I also believe (though someone else would have to confirm it) that the Pullman set was part of the program for toilet retention tanks. If they have got those tanks I believe they could still go to Whitby if the right case was there for it, but not sure if its likely at the minute.

The Pullman used to have a regular evening slot on the internal NYMR route, though this was brought into the day time timetable as part of the cut backs a couple or three years ago. Essentially they reduced overall trains by moving from the old Gold timetable during the peak time to the red taking out one internal service, and replaced another internal train with the diner on that trains operating days. And of course cutting out the need for evening operation.

In theory you could switch back to an evening diner but all signal boxes (four) would have to be manned. Historically it was supposedly possible to switch out Levisham box but again, that hasn't been done in a very long time (more than 15 years) and quotes from operators say it isn't possible anymore. There is a project in the current 10 year plan to set this up again, but you would still need three boxes manned, as well as engine and train crew/teams. Maybe an idea for galas when more people are about generally but unlikely in the current climate otherwise.

There's also the theory about customers generally preferring the daytime slot for the diner over the evening, so you would need a business case to move it back now I suspect. Though I don't believe it was reducing customer numbers on the diner that got it moved to the daytime slot either (though I may be wrong).

For later trains other than the Diner there really needs to be a case for it. The length of line means its around 75mins from Grosmont to Pickering before you even think about Whitby. The current last trains don't have many people on them. If there are special events that may be different but how you prove that case for the railway is another thing. With regard to the much talked about Goth weekend I can believe casual visitors with a curiosity would use the train as part of the overall day, but the people visiting for the Goth weekend only would be more unlikely to use the train I suspect, reducing the need for those later trains for that particular event.

 

That's pretty much it, I think. When the NYMR started running over theEVL, its safety case allowed it to run to Battersby, including 45 mph running. One of the drivers for this was the idea of running evening diners from Whitby to Battersby. This would tap into people in Whitby without the need for them to drive to Grosmont and also had the advantage of only requiring a Grosmont signalman as the EVL is controlled by Network Rail from Nunthorpe. However, this idea really never got off the ground and became a non-starter when the Northern T/T changed meaning there wasn't a realistic path for the train. Any idea of doing so is now confined to history as the NYMR no longer has a safety case to run beyond Grosmont-Whitby. I did once take the pullmans to Whitby for a special event but I can't remember what for or when. It was well before platform 2 was constructed. It may have been the only time they went there as I can't think of another occasion but I'm happy to be told they've been on other occasions.
Levisham being switched out stopped when the train staff and ticket method of train control was superseded by tablet systems. Was that really 15 years ago?