North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

“Park and Ride” is a somewhat cynical description of the offer of park in Pickering, then take train to Whitby for a day out, then return. It is the language of those not keen on the Whitby extension, but is not a ln entirely fair description of what happens - which is that the railway is a part of the overall package, not just a means of transport. As others have said, it’s a slower and more expensive way of getting to Whitby.

I don’t actually believe that NYMR should get into an overtly park and ride operation. Even if line capacity existed, it would make charging economic fares much harder, as well as raising significantly the customer expectations. I also suspect that the national park would oppose doing this at Grosmont because of the extra traffic it would introduce, which would be irrelevant to Grosmont itself

 

I tend to agree with this. If it were a simple park and ride operation you'd think people would be better off using the Northern Rail options/stations. If Grosmont parking was enhanced for such an operation I imagine a lot of customers would just use the Northern Rail trains at substantially cheaper rates than a diesel from the NYMR (in most cases at the minute).

But I do think the NYMR should be using the events diaries of Whitby and Pickering (and other stations), the school holidays calendar, and making sure trains are running and available on those days. To not run on known busy days is missing much needed income.

 

Much as I would like the Railway to benefit, the Whitby bus operated park and ride is very useful and reasonably priced, £5.50 for a family of 4 for example. I have used it myself when I knew Whitby would be busy, and can recommend it. It does a circuit of the town giving various options for alighting and boarding.

 

It all depends on the personal situation of each group of passengers. Someone who is well off (and can thus afford the fare), and who has several small children with them, or has some other mobility constraint (and thus can't walk a long way), might thus prefer an expensive option with copious nearby parking.

The question is not which group is larger (the 'cheap and walk' one will likely be), but whether if the NYMR provides the only service it can (which will necessarily be neither cheap nor fast), whether that service will attract enough customers to make a profit on it. (I have no idea, there.)

Noel

 

They seem to have their own park and ride, so unless someone really wanted a train ride would they not just park there? £50 each certainly adds to the cost of attending.
The Whitby P&R seems to run at 30 minutes intervals through to 18:30 so appears to give far more flexibility.
There are currently no extra Northern trains shown so presumably they do not see some massive market for rail borne attendees either.

 

I think the lack Northern service changes is a bit of a red herring - the Esk Valley line is very badly capacity constrained, and Northern have limited flexibility.

 

I think that what I'm suggesting is potentially cashing in on a particular market, generated by others, on a particular weekend or two. I'm not suggesting doing so regularly, so I don't see it as being really very different to making special parking arrangements for people attending, say, the Steam Gala, or any other special event. Those arrangements would supplement the National Park facilities, not replace them, and I don't think the NP would have any authority to intervene..

 

Will be visiting North Yorkshire in mid September so thought I'd take a look at ticket prices. The website is a tad confusing to put it mildly.

 

Understood, and I was answering a general point about "park & ride" at NYMR. For the other reasons given, I'm far from convinced that an explicit P&R operation for a specific event would be a good idea due to the other constraints that exist around the Esk Valley line

 

I think normal running to Whitby would be enough.

 

I'm curious if anyone here suggesting something has been missed by not offering a rail service on the goth weekend has actually attended? Beyond the bazaar, most of the events and the live music, is advertised as 'till late' or 1 in the morning. What proportion of the crowd attending would actually be interested in leaving Whitby by the last NYMR train (17:10 going from the timetable)? Considering the next one is 31st October/1st of November, are the NYMR drivers permitted to drive on the mainline at night even if a later train could be put on?

If I'm reading correctly the RTC tour gives you a little over 3 hours in Whitby, on the Friday. I'm sure they know thier market, but it reads like it's aimed more at a gothic version of the Christmas market crowd, rather than advertising itself as a useful travel option to the majority of the vistors on the day. That being said, if the benchmark is 'is it useful as a park and ride?' I would say they've missed the mark too.

 

I think people are getting hung up on the term “park and ride”.

Does the NYMR provide a sensible park and ride service to Whitby in the sense you’d understand it in other major cities? Of course not, it couldn’t provide a viable service on frequency, convenience, price or any other metric for a conventional P&R.

But really, the question is about combining a day out in Whitby with a ride on the train. Is that a viable service? You’d hope it is, since it’s the whole basis of the NYMR’s current business model. At which point, the question is why on earth would you choose not to operate on a day you know is likely to be busy?

If on a normal summer’s day Whitby has 5,000 visitors and the NYMR transports 500 of them, and then there’s an event in the town that raises the visitor count to 10,000 - no-one is suggesting the NYMR should provide transport for all 10,000, but at the very least you’d want to capitalise on the 500 you’d normally expect to carry, and ideally gear up to see if you could make that 1,000 instead.

Tom

 

The other question is would your regular target market even consider visiting Whitby on that weekend. Good luck to those that like it, but it looks like a weekend to be avoided with large crowds.

 

@Jamessquared Yes, it seems mad not to even try. Just how much did they lose by doing Thomas instead of the normal TT?

The busy Whitby trains speak for themselves. 400 Whitby tickets is worth around £20,000. Even if the NYMR took £15 in revenue from every Thomas ticket, it would mean 1333 would have to be sold daily.

 

That's the thing. I don't think goths would be using the train to visit the goth weekend! But it's an off-season attraction in Whitby and people might want to visit for a few hours to see what the fuss is about. RTC wouldn't be running a tour there if they didn't think there might be a market for it. Surely maximising the chances of revenue is better than completely ignoring the market by not running anything?

 

The RTC trip is October 9 the goth weekend at the end of the month.
The RTC tour info also states
"There will be just over an hour to explore Whitby at leisure. Famed for its maritime heritage and as the home of Captain James Cook, Whitby offers visitors a wealth of attractions, from its bustling harbour and charming narrow streets to the iconic Abbey perched high above the town. Of course, no visit would be complete without sampling Whitby's renowned fish and chips."

So in reality no chance to do much at all, especially if you are not in dining.

Not sure the trip and the goth weekend are related really, or if the tour even serves the visit for a few hours criteria.

 

There's another tour from Manchester on Friday 30th October.

https://www.railwaytouring.net/the-whitby-goth-express

Doesn't show on the website though for some reason, but it was on an email that came through yesterday.

 

Explore Whitby at leisure and have time for fish & chips - in an hour??? That would be quite a rush, I think!

 

I never got that email despite being on their list. So a diesel tour (with 47's) which will appeal to few of the diesel brigade, and only 3 hours in Whitby, which seems short if you want to spend much time at the goth event.
I guess something new Kelly is trying.

 

I think the counter to that point is that at this event, this isn't a crowd necessaraily going for a day out in Whitby. They are there for the goth weekend, which happens to be in Whitby. In a similar vein to the argument about the CVR and the Alton Towers station, is there a profitable portion of that crowd who want to dilute their time at the festival with a trip on the railway? There maybe be double the amount of visitors in Whitby that weekend, but Whitby isn't the attraction, the festival is. If you aren't considering them starting in Whitby and considering the railway an attraction, then the issue about the last train to Grosmont limiting time at the festival comes back into the picture.