Bluebell Railway General Discussion

950 was privately owned, and only on the railway for storage. It was stored outside for an extended period of time, and as a result had deteriorated significantly. Presumably this decision was taken by the vehicle owner rather than the railway, but I’m sure @RichardSalmon will know the answer to that.

 

I've spent a fair chunk of time this evening trying to write a suitable timetable for SAW with three sets. (To be clear to all I do not write the timetables; this is effectively an excercise of fun and the timetable I have written will not be operated in reality.)

The main bulk of the day is an hourly service. Trains pass at HK and KC - so with three sets there are never (apart from an intentional anomaly) multiple sets at SP at once.

The relief time in a typical round trip is as follows:
Up trains have short ish dwells at HK (5 mins) and KC (4 mins) - although these are greater than the normal 2 mins due to high volume of passengers boarding and alighting
40 minutes at EG (to include run round)
10 mins at KC on the down
23 mins at HK on the down
25 mins at SP (to include run round and take water)

The other problem with trying to run hourly is the amount of time spent sitting at either KC or HK or both whilst waiting for the next oncoming train.

Enfuriatingly, crews of engine A and C are right on the 12 hour maximum, so both engines would need a split crew. (Set B only does two trips - passenger demand is lower in the afternoon.)

@Jamessquared do crew breaks have to be defined and continuous, or can they be taken as available? For example, it takes 1h 10 mins to get from EG to SP, so there is plenty of slack to spend some time away from the engine.

Could this kind of timetable work where loco crews 'step back' a train at SP on each round trip? I.e. crew 1 takes set A for the first trip, crew 2 takes set B for its first trip, crew 3 takes set C for its first trip. Crew 4 then takes set A for its second trip, crew 1 takes set B for its second trip, and crew 2 takes set C for its second trip. Then crew 3 takes set A for its third trip, and crew 4 takes set C for its third round trip.
This way, each crew does two round trips on two different engines. They also get a 1h break at SP after each trip, if they are relieved immediately upon arrival, and then they relieve the next crew immediately upon their arrival.
This system would only need four crews rather than the five required if the crews stayed with the engines, as two locos would need to be split. A relief / spare crew would also be essential if there was no stepping back in place.

 

In terms of having a break, a long layover at an intermediate station sometimes allows you to get off, but fundamentally you are still in charge of the loco at that point, so it isn't really a mental break. You may also want to use the time to pull coal forward for the next trip (quite common in the long layover you normally have at Horsted on down journeys) so it isn't a physical rest.

I think crews swapping between engines like that would be unpopular. I can't see an inherent reason why you shouldn't do it, just that a loco becomes your home for the day and you start adjusting to its quirks, so to keep swapping would be odd.

The real issue though is you have the long and short breaks at the wrong stations. At East Grinstead, you have forty minutes with nothing much to do except run round. The loco has been working at full effort up until 2 minute before you arrive so has a very hot fire and brick arch, and then you have to keep it quiet for forty minutes (blowing off at EG is to be avoided if at all possible). We used to do similar with the East Grinstead Santas, but there you were steam heating to help manage the steam production; it becomes much harder in the summer. Then at the other end, you have only 25 minutes at SP in which to run round, take water and build the fire up for the next trip, a process that often takes 10 minutes or more and which, depending on the coal, you may want to start 15 - 20 minutes in advance of departure. (Less time with the current coal which ignites very fast, but still a reasonable length of time to put a back end in). From time to time we do have short run-rounds at Sheffield Park, and as a fireman it means you often start to put the back end in while taking water; it's doable but all just becomes a bit pressured.

One option for a three train timetable with an hourly frequency might be to split the line in two: run a 2-train, hourly service from SP to Kingscote, crossing at Horsted and basically following the old pre-East Grinstead timetable. And then use the third train to run Kingscote - East Grinstead shuttles slotted in between and connecting with the trains at Kingscote. . That could be an interesting way to use the Thumper when it is available as the turnarounds at each end could be done quite quickly. But even that I think might end up a bit tight on timings, essentially needing more time than is ideal at Kingscote and therefore having less at Sheffield Park.

Tom

 

That's interesting - thank you for explaining that.

Re: splitting the service at KC, you would have to be careful not to run out of platforms - but with a bit of thought when planning, it could definitely work. The connecting time on the down would be 30 minutes, or even more if the EG shuttle had to run round.

 

All the talk about the Southern At War timetable - this was the 2016 timetable which was in the midst of a loco shortage at that time when only the E4, Camelot, H and C were available (the latter two double headed on the Saturday for two round trips as a test run for the H following mechanical work and double headed all day (bar the 10:15) which was a combined GAL+C set working

Obviously any rostering is dependent on maintenance and washout requirements

 

Thank you for finding and posting this. Upon brief inspection this is basically a four set service with a 'gap' - a pattern which really winds me up and must lead to uneven loading! I suppose the argument is that if you can survive the long gap why bother plugging the gap at other times with a third set?

 

Fag packet calculation: if you did it with the Thumper, I'd envision the thumper being in one platform when the "up service" arrived. 3 minutes for anyone wishing to continue to cross platform; 7 minutes to East Grinstead; 5 minutes to change ends; 7 minutes back, 3 minutes for anyone arriving to cross back to the service train (which has run round in the meantime). That is tight, but gives 25 minutes between up train arriving and it departing south again, which I think is what the old timetable had. (So you'd leave SP at xx:00; arrive at Kingscote at xx:30; depart at xx:55, arrive at Horsted at xy:10 to clear the next "up" arrival which would be arriving at Horsted at xy:15).

As loco crew you get 25 minutes at each end of the line and it is all a bit tight / prone to go wrong. It's really hard to think of a viable hourly timetable. You can do every 40 minutes with four trains or every 75 minutes with two, but it is not obvious to me how you do it between those frequencies!

Tom

 

I had considered this method of operating the KC split service after you first suggested it, but dismissed it due to how tight it would be. In my opinion 3 mins is not enough for passengers to transfer- especially seeing as almost everyone is likely to want to continue onwards, certainly at the extremes of the day.

If you're a reckless train planner, you can run an hourly service with two sets. Depart SP xx00, HK xx15-xx17. No time to stop at KC so fly through at xx31. Into EG xx38. Depart EG xx49, KC xx56, into HK xx10, in time for the next up train. That's bonkers, and breaks the planning rules at EG, but, I reckon, if everyone gets on with it, would be possible.

If you had a loop at Vaux End (roughly the middle of the line) then the hourly becomes easier - except you've wasted the time you've gained by sitting in a field waiting for the other train). You could double track HK-West Hoathly, but there wouldn't be time for a West Hoathly station dwell.

With efficiency and engines which can do a round trip without water, every 70 mins is perfectly achievable with two sets.

You could obviously do hourly with four sets and a lot of sitting around. To be honest I would consider trying to run a train every 40 minutes on the Bluebell reckless no matter how you go about it.

Here is what I wrote yesterday:

(Train IDs redacted as these are effectively a 'secret' internal system.)

 

It may be operationally convenient and the NYMR and the Bluebell are two different railways but, if the NYMR experience is anything to go by, Joe Public does not like changing trains. For most they are comfortably settled in their seats and are then required to pick everything up, including kids, get off the train, cross to another platform and join a fight to find seats together on the new train. All this probably at the same time as others are doing the same thing in the opposite direction.

 

I would agree with that, anyone travelling with children probably. We always look at how long we can be on one set before having to change because it terminates or has xx minutes at a terminus station before returning where there is nothing to do. On several lines we will often not go to the end of the line, East Grinstead and Cheltenham Race Course two examples, because you can be sat there doing nothing for 30-40 minutes which doesn’t keep the kids occupied! Our recent trips to West Somerset have seen us get off at Bishops Lydeard and later get the same set back to Minehead once it’s been to Norton Fitzwarren, that 75 minutes or so has been enough time to do the model railway and so on there.

 

And this is why designing timetables around production rather than demand has never gone well for railways - going back to all those 19th century branch lines with fixed timetables lasting till Beeching came along.

 

Indeed not, it was really musing whether there is any way to run a three train, equal interval, service - and I think the answer is not. You either end up with a two train service, or four train, or “four trains with one missing” if you try to run three - which is essentially the normal pattern when adding in a dining service, but doesn’t work for a public service.

Tom

 

"You either end up with a two train service, or four train, or “four trains with one missing"
So a waltz time signature then...?
The Blue(bell) Danube?

 

To be honest the Bluebell has it very lucky infrastructure / passing loops etc wise. There is the ability to run one train up to every two hours on one set - perfect for off-peak. Then, with two sete you can run every hour and 15 mins - perfect for regular busy e.g. weekends. Then for galas every 45 mins works well. There is also scope to mess around with trains because of how many platforms Horsted Keynes has.

Most lines don't have it as good as the Bluebell.

 

Maybe the answer (one day) would be to have a passing loop outside East Grinstead. That would then become, in effect, a two platform terminus, mirroring Sheffield Park.
Pat

 

Not quite a two-train terminus though - I must admit I've never been very keen on having trains cross in the middle of nowhere, it doesn't lead to better passenger amenity. (Same comment for the often-touted suggestion of a crossing point just south of the tunnel to even out the northern and southern sections of the line).

As @SECR 65 mentions, we have a lot of basic flexibility in timetable design:

• 1 train at 2 hour interval
• 2 trains at 75 minutes interval
• 2 trains at 75 minutes with space for a dining train or demonstration goods
• 2 trains along the whole line, with an additional shuttle on the southern end, giving a 75 minute interval north of HK and 35/40 south of HK - useful when there is an event with attractions spread across SP and HK
• 4 trains along the whole line at 40 / 45 minutes interval
• 4 trains along the whole line with break van rides at Horsted Keynes
• Operating the line as separate northern and southern halves either side of Horsted Keynes (use intensely for Branch Line Weeknd; and less intensely for Santa services some years).

When all is said and done, it's a lot of flexibility between very quiet and very busy days, and to cope with events like Giants and Diesel gala where most people want to ride the trains; and events like Model Railway weekend and Road meets Rail where there are significant reasons to get out at intermediate stations.

Tom