V2 4771 Green Arrow to return?

19 is under overhaul at Crewe ATM.

 

The fact that the overhaul of Flying Scotsman had to be undertaken twice is no fault of the engine. The people that are and were involved is another matter.

Sir Nigel Gresley underwent an overhaul from 2015 and returned in April 2022. This is understood to have cost £800,000 but this work did not cover the same ground as that covered with Flying Scotsman. The A4 also benefited from having its own team of active supporters. The NRM relied on and trusted in its own staff and paid staff have to be paid for. Scotsman's (double) overhaul took a decade, that on Gresley took more than six years and if we knew the hours of labour freely given to the A4 overhaul we could adjust the costs accordingly but it is perhaps better that we do not know. Those that are interested could make their own estimate those that are not are free to continue with their "money pit" mindset.

When it comes to the V2 there are questions. In order for it to run on the mainline it not only needs overhaul. It does not enjoy a team of capable supporters and this drives the cost up. Once the overhaul work is done you also have to add in the electrical system. Is it worth taking the work so far? You could limit the engine to preserved line use but it is not a household name, unlike the two Pacifics, and recouping the overhaul and repair costs could be a daunting prospect. Any one in favour of taking on the financial burden?

The outcome that some might like to see may well not be realistically possible.

 

All true, but points that beg further scrutiny. Two immediately come to mind.

The first is that if NRM are concerned about the costs of doing the job themselves, some of that will be the result of what went wrong last time with Scotsman. Complicated projects are not easy to deliver, and report by Bob Meanley demonstrated how thin the skill base was.

The second is that the lack of "a team of capable supporters" is, at least in part, the result of conscious decisions that NRM have taken to reduce the volunteer input into their operation - steam and diesel. Such capacity is difficult to build in the best of circumstances

 

Who was in charge at NRM during the FS overhaul?
Is it likely the outcome would be any different for the V2, ie would the holders of the purse strings be at all inclined to take on the risk?

 

Everything would have to be done by contractors. The NRM no longer has a workshop.

 

It would be interesting to see the income and expenditure cost of operating Scotsman. However, if the hire figures I’ve seen are correct then it should be cash positive at the end of its current ticket. Whether that money is put back into Scotsman or used to fund a different loco overhaul is debatable.
On the assumption that it is a different loco then that is something that will tax the minds of the museum world. From a strictly engineering point, Mallard, the Duchess and Green Arrow are all possible. I believe that, when the Duchess was streamlined it was done so in a gauge friendly way but I’m happy to be told that’s wrong. A streamlined Duchess is getting beyond living memory and I do think it looks spectacular and would be a big draw, as would Mallard because it is as well-known as Scotsman. Green Arrow is much less well-known outside railway circles and would not be the same draw with Joe Public.
It’s a shame Anthony Coulls no longer posts on here; it would be interesting to hear his thoughts in the debate

 

There was an interview with the NRM in one of the magazines maybe 5 or 6 years back which said the museum didn't make any money from the A3, it all went into a pot from which the custodian had to ensure it was maintained and operated as stipulated in the contract.
Obviously the contract was let to a new custodian more recently than that so whether the terms are the same we don't know but the loco has perhaps earned less over the current term than previously as its workload seems to have been reduced.

 

What about 70013 - how is the overhaul being funded?

 

Isn’t that covered by the 5305LA?

 

GCR I think, as the railway is now custodian rather than 5305LA.

 

You’re right, I forgot about that change. Thanks

 

The cost of FS, much vaunted and derided as the "Flying Moneypit" has now in my view been eclipsed by others, including Blue Peter, which Jeremy Hosking had quoted very publically last year as having cost him £5m. We are now in the era of the multi-million pound paid for overhaul, like it or not.

 

100 year world speed record 2038 has a ring to it.

 

But that was paid for by a wealthy collector, NRM locos are basically public money.
If I wanted to spend £5M restoring something, if I had the money, nothing to do with anybody but me.

 

The GCR is also overhauling Sir Lamiel 30777 and the 04/8K 63601, which are NRM locomotives. I "suspect" along the lines of costs of parts and labour by the DCRT/GCR "as and when", in return, they will run on the GCR for up to ten years after completion - when not required by the NRM. Needless to say this is supposition, as the precise details are commercial and confidential.

 

@Flying Phil I suspect you're right. GCR were announced as new custodians to overhaul and run 70013 (including main line certification) after the last ticket expired, but no financial arrangements were mentioned and, as far as I know, there has not been a high profile appeal for funding.

As for Green Arrow I suspect there is (or was) a view within NRM that they would love to run it again, and no firm conclusions on what cylinder repair/replace monobloc with monobloc/replace monobloc with fabrication options might be acceptable. But they've never found a funding/overhaul partner and no longer have the engineering capability to do it themselves.

 

The strange part of GC funding 70013 overhaul to include mainline use is what benefit the extra costs bring for a Railway which doesn't currently have a connection to the network.
I "assume" 5305LA is still heavily involved with the loco and would again form any support crew but they also have 45305 of course which one would presume to be the priority.

 

Green Arrow was only overhauled last time due to private sponsorship by Dr Michael Peagram - a mere £100k then. I suspect it would need similar sponsorship now for any hope of change of fortune and at least 10 times that amount..

 

Thanks for the correction @guycarr360 .

 

Not. A. Chance.

Mallard is simply too valuable to try that again - besides which, the Yanks might have built, steamed and lifted the record with that T1 thing of theirs by then!