The 10A Allocation

Writing it off reduces your tax bill, but you still need to spend the money. If an overhaul costs £1m and your tax rate is 20% you are still going to end up £800k down, albeit plus an overhauled loco

 

Looking at this another way though, the business in question is effectively custodian of a large part of UK railway preservation, the thing that this forum is about.
Drawing a parallel, it is akin to being a fan of a football team where the club has owners who have little regard for fan input to how the club is run.
So I would say there is a 'community interest' in how the steam charter industry is run and by extension each of the 'players'.

 

All good ideas, however I'm not sure RTC necessarily has the agency to use other TOCs or rolling stock suppliers.
Lets face it, if RTC had a free hand and more power they wouldn't choose to operate as they have been the last few years.

 

Is that not how most football clubs are run, but that is a digression.
There may be a "community interest" and where donations, memberships etc are asked for a valid input ergo say the NYMR debate.
But when looking at LSL and WCRC, whom to my knowledge have never asked for any financial input from the public or the enthusiast community to me it seems akin to suggesting to Tesco that the "community" is unhappy with their stock range, or number of stores, or Ryanair's choice of routes and aircraft type.
Once they are a private business it is down to the owners to decide what they want to do, & even if they were public quoted companies you still have no say. My 6000 odd BA shares (which are now an unknown number of IAG shares as I have no interest in the Spanish Company) gave me, and still give me zero input into any issue, let alone decision making.

 

The object of any business is to make a profit regardless of what it does.... making widgets...growing spuds. If you lose sight of that.....well...?

 

You make my point for me, "once they are a private business" is precisely the issue, where historical artefacts, and preservation thereof, becomes a matter of wider concern.
I fully accept that individuals are entitled to collect items of cultural heritage, be it works of art or locomotives and are at liberty to do as they wish with private possessions. That doesn't negate "enthusiasts" from remaining as stakeholders in that cultural heritage. Hopefully the works of art or locomotives survive for future generations to appreciate but in private hands that isn't a given.
For the avoidance of doubt, I'm not suggesting the 10A allocation is at risk of destruction, merely that the wide veneration which is part of their attraction as collectors items isn't considered in their current curation, who knows of the future?
Nor am I "demanding a say" just as football fans we are powerless to influence something which is cherished by many thousands. We just have to hope custodians act respectfully, with propriety and good faith, for the time they have on earth with those possessions.

 

What a dumb contribution in this context. Nobody would seriously go into locomotive owning to "make a profit".
Or rather to make a small fortune, start with a large one ....
The point of running this charter business is surely a revenue stream to offset the vast costs of acquiring, restoring and running steam locos?

 

With respect...what is the definition of "revenue"... covering your costs surely ?...no profit, no money to reinvest ? How can any business reinvest without making a profit ? please explain I'm intrigued ? you seem to have a new business expansion model.... what business are you in ?

 

If you are a business with a number of activities and income streams, 'losses'or investment activity in some areas could be useful in offsetting tax liabilities in more profitable ones, at least in the short term..

 

Which takes me back to a comment on here a few months ago - West Coast and RTC are in some way 'linked', which precludes them from looking elsewhere. I don't know how or in what format - but it means that RTC are far more open to the effects of West Coast's (or indeed one man's) decision making, than they otherwise might be.
Of course, we should never forget that steam daytrips are only one part of RTC's portfolio.

 

I mean perhaps, just perhaps, RTC like WCR and opt for them as their operator? Rather than the smoke and mirrors, underlying forced hand, that is being suggested?!

The amount of questioning going on here of private individuals and their business is unreal. Ultimately it is their business, nobody elses. If they wish to run it as they do, who are we to question. Ultimately I stand by a statement I’ve made numerous times, look at everything they’ve given to the mainline scene, and how crap it would have been and still be (To an extent) without them.

 

Because Harry, as enthusiasts we give a damn. A number of people on here (myself included) have stated we have not booked a West Coast operated trip for a number of years. The reasons to any enthusiast are obvious. No one is denying that we had it good for a number of years because of West Coast, but those days are gone it would seem, due to (it would appear one man's) business decisions.
Those decisions have impacts beyond just that one business. I think that those impacts are worthy of debate, especially when some of those decisions do not appear to have a founding in actual economic sense and have much broader impacts in the heritage world.
Of course West Coast's business decisions are their's & no one us under any illusion they would pay attention to comments on here. But (& I have said this before) - it is perfectly possible to be grateful for their past contributions and wonder why on Earth they are doing what they have done for the last 3 years, BECAUSE of what they did before.

 

With respect, I think the owner of said locomotive collection makes money, profit, in other business ventures and uses that money to subsidise the loco collection as a hobby. Hiring those locos to RTC and using them on WC in-house trains also provides income to offset the vast costs of such a steam fleet.
Are you seriously suggesting that someone buys steam locos to haul steam charters solely as a profit making venture? If so, may I offer you this bridge I'm selling?
The other revenue streams of WC, are vastly more lucrative as others have alluded eg stock transfers, thunderbird, snow plough duties.

 

Just as tens of thousands of fans question how "their" football club is being run when the chips are down.
Why shouldn't enthusiasts voice concern if they think something they cherish is being mismanaged and possibly resulting in its demise or becoming a pale shadow at best?
I'd also point out that the supporters of many railways voice similar concerns about the running of their preferred lines because they care. Just because something is privately owned doesn't stop people caring about its future, especially if they think its headed on a downward trajectory.

 

and we should never forget that steam railtours are also only one (small) part of WCRC's railway business portfolio.

 

Anyone who has no interest in the principles, strategic direction and management of companies such as Tesco and Ryanair has their head in the sand. Companies such as these affect all our lives, in both good and bad ways, whether or not we use their services.

As this is a forum for railway enthusiasts, with its genesis in one established by a mainline steam company, it is reasonable to expect that views will be expressed about LSL and WCR, although they are relatively minnows.

 

Thing is its just like football clubs insofar as people are happy and don't question who owns what, how its funded, corporate decisions etc until things are not going as they may wish, a case in point being say Chelsea's ownership under Abramovich where he never actually said a word, but as long as he was happy to write the cheques fans were not that bothered what the strategy was or where the cash came from (I'm only using Chelsea as an example and not making any claim that fans of other cubs would be any different if they were in the same successful on the pitch position).

Turning to the case in point here, its interesting that WCR are getting so much scrutiny when their rail tour/locomotive ownership forms part of a considerably wider operating company that appears to be fully self sustaining and from a limited look on CH pretty healthy financially turning a pretty darn good profit on its activities, then compare and contrast this with LSL where a similarly light look on CH shows a range of companies with generally only a single director who is pumping in several £m's each year just to keep them afloat, which he is entirely welcome to do so with his own money, but to my only limitedly educated mind would suggest is a greater threat of demise should something unpleasant happen or interests move elsewhere...

I'm not going to repeat myself again (feel free to read my back catalogue on this), but the small scale of the sector and, bar VT's, its dependency of a small number of wealthy individuals, who despite their wealth cannot hold back the ravages of time, is something that should possibly tax brains rather more in the long term.

 

Indeed, ultimately it is the locomotives which enthusiasts are interested in. Grateful as we may be that a couple of wealthy blokes have chosen to indulge their hobby by spending millions to collect and restore many locos, there's no guarantee of their continued public visibility. Ownership of the LSL fleet seems to in a Trust structure, I don't know enough to understand whether that offers some protection. However, returning to the football comparison Jack Walker set up a Trust that was supposed to sustain Blackburn Rovers after his demise but doesn't seem to have stopped the club falling into a parlous state, with much disliked owners.

 

A Trust may decide to sell any assets so long as doing so is in accordance with the public-benefits the Trust was set up to promote. If a Trust goes bust the administrator or liquidator's duty then is (same as a bust company) to reimburse as much as possible to the creditors so any idea of public-benefit may go out of the window. I'm not suggesting the 10A locos are at risk of either eventuality, just pointing out a Trust is not an infallible cloak of protection.