If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

VT: The Shap Mountaineer with Tornado - 28/03/26

Discussion in 'What's Going On' started by 30567, Dec 19, 2025.

  1. Bill2

    Bill2 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2020
    Messages:
    144
    Likes Received:
    321
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Wilmslow
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Some comments on the gradients at Shap Summit. The normal gradient profile shows a mile of level track between mileposts 37¼ and 38¼, and post 37¼ was the top of the Shap Time Trial section in 1995. However, on timing these trains and others it soon became clear that the climb continued for some distance beyond this, and a bit later a gradient post showing the change from 1-in-75 to level was put up almost alongside post 37½; I think Mike Notley was involved and it is still there. The Railway Data web site shows the top of the climb at 37 miles 38 chains, and incidentally the gradient as 1-in-76; it confirms the end of the level section and thus the southbound summit at post 38¼.
     
  2. Oswald T Wistle

    Oswald T Wistle Well-Known Member Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2013
    Messages:
    1,758
    Likes Received:
    8,123
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    ESI Eng Manager (Retd)
    Location:
    NE Lancs
    Some horsepower calculations for 60163, using the RPS spreadsheet and my GPS data. All the usual caveats about inherent uncertainties with values given to the nearest 25 and an estimated uncertainty of ±50 to 100HP.

    Grayrigg North (MP13-MP26)

    12.99 miles in 14m 22s (average speed 54.3 mph). Average EDHP = 1475

    Shap North (MP31.5-MP37.25)

    5.75 miles in 6m 14s (average speed 55.3 mph). Average EDHP = 1725

    Ais Gill (MP275-MP259.75 [summit sign])

    15.22m in 19m 57s (average speed 45.8 mph). Average EDHP = 1450

    Ais Gill from Birkett TSR (MP264-MP260)

    3.98 miles in 5m 56s (average speed 40.2 mph). Average EDHP = 1825
     
    Sean Emmett, acorb and Mick45305 like this.
  3. Sean Emmett

    Sean Emmett Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2014
    Messages:
    592
    Likes Received:
    519
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Bristol
    Yes. I prepared the logs for the Steam Railway article on the Shap Trials and recall much discussion re the timing points chosen, MP 31½ for the start, MP 33¼ for the steeping to 1:75 (now shown by Network Rail as 1:76) and MP 37¼ for the end of the timing section. If I recall correctly, MP37¼ was preferred as more likely to coincide with the minimum speed.

    The Network Rail gradient spreadsheet released under a FOI request shows

    31 m 1091 yds to 32 m 0299 yds 1:149 up
    32 m 0299 yds to 33 m 0440 yds 1:137 up
    33 m 0440 yds to 37 m 0844 yds 1:76 up
    37 m 0844 yds to 38 m o440 yds level

    to the nearest chain

    31m 50c to 32m 14c 1:149 up
    32m 14c to 33m 20c 1:137 up
    33m 20c to 37m 38c 1:76 up
    37m 38c to 38m 20c level

    Note that slower pass to pass times will be recorded from the back of the train compared with the front. On a ten coach train (plus the water carrier), a recorder in the rear bay of the last coach would be about 10 chains behind a recorder in the first bay of the support coach. On 28 March 2026 Tornado passed MP 31½ at 73 mph. The second recorder would have recorded a passing time 6.2 seconds after the first. With speed down to 42 mph at MP 37¼, the second recorder would have recorded a passing time 10.7 seconds after the first, so over a 4.5 second difference for the climb.
     
    MellishR and Oswald T Wistle like this.
  4. Sean Emmett

    Sean Emmett Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2014
    Messages:
    592
    Likes Received:
    519
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Bristol
    I attach my own workings for the outward leg. Mine are slightly higher, I made the weight of the train (North of Crewe) 388 tons tare and 427 tons gross, incl 10 tons for the water in Reg which may be an over-estimate.

    The earlier climb of Whitmore does not indicate any diesel assistance!
     

    Attached Files:

Share This Page