6024 King Edward 1

I wholeheartedly agree!

But they are no substitute for proper mainline steam.

 

Why would any railtour operator base their operations of the enthusiast market which is so minimal compared to the other markets?! It’s like Cadburys basing their business off non-dairy people!

 

They wouldn't. But @Fireboxchaserphotography expresses a widespread enthusiast view, which is both reasonable in itself, but a poor reflection on how our hobby can earn the money necessary to pay for it.

 

It did so originally because volunteer enthusiasts did so much to save, restore, maintain & operate most of the steam locomotives used. Things've undoubtably changed but without all this early enthusiast effort the size, if any, of the 'business' today'd be much tinier.

 

You've just been to East Germany and seen a 4 car steam hauled unassisted mainline train that presumably was full of enthusiasts so there is a market. I know it's a different country but it shows that it is perhaps other factors that have made the railtour market the way it is today rather than the (relatively) minimal enthusiast market.

 

And the number of railtours and style of operation of there is minimal compared to ours.

A quote in one of the recent magazines from the HRA or some such organisation shows the enthusiast market is worth about 11% of income for heritage railways. I can’t imagine it is greater for mainline. LSL have done what, 4(?), unassisted runs in the last 6/7 months. Compared to god knows how many regular style trips. That say enough about percentages of enthusiasts to me.

 

You missed the key words "economically viable" before the word "market". And your second sentence then makes the point that there may be other factors that drive viability - notably that an operator can consider running load 4.

 

Yeah I mean totally he ignores the fact that those carriages seat about 2 MK1s worth of people in 1 coach!

 

If that's so, then I stand corrected - but 128 per carriage?

 

The enthusiast demographic must be having a major effect. Those of us who filled the SLOA trips are now all well into our pensions, many are no longer with us.
Amongst the younger folk, the percentage that are steam enthusiasts is lower, and of those, how many have sufficient disposable income to afford today’s prices?

 

Think it’s more like 100 but you get the picture. Definitely more in their coaches then ours.

 

IIRC from Dresden last year we were sat 6+6 vs 4+4 though that was (very) hard class!

 

Yea I’ve sat 6+6 with 10 bays each side, but I’ve also seen 6+4 with 12 bays each side

 

The 'value' of the enthusiast market isn't just financial though. I wonder how many amongst that 11% go on to become volunteers at a heritage railway? Although quite conceivable that they 'get the bug' while on holiday and then join a railway nearer home.

 

It's generally not the market that's the problem, it's the product. Marathon trips are the exception rather than the rule in Europe. Assuming you mean the Rodelblitz, then it's about 3 hours each way, you can alight at stations en route, you can wander up to the bar, stick your head out of the window - all in all, a much more enjoyable experience. Compare that to a CME where you're stuck in an air con Mk2 for 7 hours before you're able to alight! More varied routes, different locos, worthwhile destinations with time to explore and have lunch, not a choice of one or the other. If you're going to be stuck on the train for 14 hours of out 16, you're going to want a bit of comfort. It's a long time to rely on a packed lunch and crap tea from the buffet!

The frequency of the rail service and the minimalist nature of the network is a massive hindrance to tours, and also to freight and slower passenger services. Out of a couple of dozen tours I've done in Europe, I can only think of a couple where we've been put into loops to allow other trains to pass and not been able to alight. That's the norm in the UK sadly.

Going back to 6024, when the Torbays first started with 7802, they were made up of 6 TSOs, an RMB, a brake and a support coach. By the end of PTR/Pathfinder doing them, they were up to 11 vehicles, of which only 3 were TSOs. 2 FOs for first, three FOs for dining, plus a kitchen car.

 

That may be a tangential value, but not much use to the likes of WR,LS, TY or the tour companies.

 

Absolutely. Businesses run on hard cash, and if 90% of their passengers want dining then they will pay for it. I wouldn’t be looking to please a minority in comparison to a
Majority in a business.

 

Speak for yourself, my prime railtouring days were in the SLOA days with my dad and I only turned 50 last year!

 

It's the "they" brigade again isn't it?