Lynton and Barnstaple - Operations and Development

WE need a new idea. The old idea has not worked. ....
Ok , Here's new idea.....
We can't have that! Its NOTHING like the old idea

 

Sounds like the who

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss, we won't get fooled again.

To be honest, Giles and Co are starting to make a few changes, but there is a long way to go yet.

 

While Rome wasn’t built in a day. They represent change, and have had limited authority to date. They deserve some space as they deal with the legacy they’ve been given

 

I, for one, look forward to the new team taking this project forward, and I hope I am still around when the extension is up and running. It has to be agreed that in the past, there has been a lot of disappointment. I feel the new team will need to try to address this as soon as possible, even if they only achieve something small. As they say, success breeds success.

I do get the impression that there is far more optimism about the railway now, which has to be a good thing.

There may be a lot more work to do behind the scenes that we don't know about to get this project into such a position, before progress can be made. As heritage railway projects go, I think I can say that this is the most frustrating one ever to exist.

 

Agree! Though I think the series of attempts to restore the Southwold Railway - almost since it closed in 1929 - come close in degree of frustration, and the opposition in Suffolk is just as fierce. L&B have always been HSNGR's look-to organisation (well, with the Mid-Suffolk), although we are 20 or 30 years behind. However I guess the Ashover is the greatest lost NG railway which anyone has actually tried to restore... 'cos AFAIK, there has never been a serious attempt with the Leek and Manifold.... James

 

I don't believe the HLF is in the habit of funding the construction of new railways. Moreover if it were, I suspect many objectors would see it as just another example of people living a long way away ignoring local opinion so that a few old men could play trains.

There is a habit I've seen on this thread, but also on some others, of people looking for the proverbial "White Knight". Lots of debate is couched around something that, when you boil it down, amounts to "we want someone else to make our money problems go away".

It's a dangerous delusion to have. Firstly, really big grants are incredibly rare: if you are hoping to win a seven (or even eight) figure sum, you have to not only be a good project, you have to be one of the very best projects possible in the entire country (*). Secondly, I suspect many people touting the idea that big grants are the solution feel it will be less work than traditional ways of raising money more organically - it always feels like a shortcut. It isn't. Thirdly, big funders generally want something that meets their own objectives - the result of which is that often a really big grant might lead you to modify your project into something that isn't really what you want, but which matches what the funder wants. And fourthly, those wishing for major grants often seem to feel that a funding body will disburse an amount of money far larger than the scale of the organisation spending it. No-one is going to give a £1m per year organisation a grant of £10 or £20m, because the risks are too great that the money simply overwhelms the organisation's ability to spend it wisely.

The WHR is about the only railway I can think of that got reconstructed using grant aid on the scale you are dreaming of. But firstly that was EU finding, no longer available since Brexit. And secondly even there - especially there - the funding was contingent on meeting the outcomes desired by the funding body, which in that particular case was about regeneration in an economically deprived area. A project of similar scale in the Home Counties would not have got funded.

I don't doubt that fundraising on a major scale will be required. But it has to be based much more locally and from a much greater base. That is the only way that you can show local objectors that the project has more significant support than a handful of old men wanting to play trains; and secondly it is one way of showing competence and support to grant-giving bodies if you do go down that route.

In short, if you want this railway built - mobilise your supporters, and stop dreaming of white knights. The "softly, softly" approach to fundraising of EA / YVT seems far more likely both to be successful and to win hearts and minds.

(*) The largest single HLF grant in 2025 was £9m to the Birmingham Botanic Garden. With all respect to the L&B, I suspect the number of members of the public who will be able to benefit from the outcome of that grant dwarfs the number of people who will ever be able to ride on a re-instated Lynton and Barnstaple.

Tom

 

Tom - agree very strongly with everything you say. Re. the WHR (which was a very unusual and highly political case) - there's also the example of the NNR who got lots of cash for a new shop, WCs,etc. - from the EU (as you say, no longer an option) - but they very cleverly wrapped it around PUBLIC facilities, not just railway ones.
We have had the "old men playing trains" thing here too (Suffolk) - and it's quite hard to refute - 'cos we are!
I have been involved in various grant applications on the WHR Ltd. - one to the lottery, which was a disaster (three years of work trying to morph the application into summat they'd like, only for them totally to change their criteria at the last minute) - and successful applications for coach disabled adaptations (now hard to get as it's statutory provision, so should be done in the normal course of things), and - from PRISM (museums grants) for the NG Buffet Car - sadly those grants are no more.

The solution - well, that's not easy. In my experience people do like to sponsor extensions (often by paying for "sleepers" or whatever) - we have done quite a lot of that. Ditto locos, as long as the fund is well managed so that sponsors are kept informed very regularly. I have been relatively successful with the "heritage train" concept on two-and-a-half railways so far - and that can fly if - again - there's a constant flow of positive info to sponsors. Even buildings can be done that way - but it's harder, unless they are original.

I think we all have to accept that the entire Heritage Railway "movement" is in for a lot harder time over the next few years: there's little cash out there, and there's a lot more - and a lot more competent - competition too. However, if we are canny, there's still lots of vague goodwill towards puffer trains (as the public would say), and that can be mobilised, as long, crucially, as we don't think we should have help as a right. James

 

I am with the last two posters. I think the release by the B&YVRT is important, as it sets out precisely this incremental confidence building approach and the intention to deliver training and public space benefits for local people. These elements are not accidental. It is essential that the approach is fundamentally about delivering a positive “good” locally in an area that dos need regeneration. Delivering the railway is of secondary importance.

 

Believe it or not, I do agree with all of the last three posts, and I do know that fundraising is not easy, but it also needs to be an area which is just not ignored either.
You guys already know my disappointment with the 762 Club, but could the concept of building all 4 Manning Wardles at the same time still happen? Maybe it's just me banging my head against a brick wall, but as you say, it is also down to how you present the project that needs funding.

I have for some time hoped that maybe the L&BR Trust could present a last train project, i.e., 2 Manning Wardles and nine coaches that ran in September 1935. This would consist of both EXE* and LEW being built along with the nine replica coaches used on the last Train.

Now, as EXE* is currently being built by the 762 club, and I think it is the one they want to get finished first, building a new LEW and then using the rest of the steam locomotive part of this new fund to help build one of the other Manning Wardles might be an answer to getting all four finished by 2035.

As for the coaches, it makes sense to build replicas from the word go, as the east group is well organised, with the various templates already to go in-house.

If we, for now, accept that it will cost £ 1.5 million per steam loco and £250,000 per coach, that comes to a total of around £5 1/4 million pounds. If that could be reduced to around 5 million pounds, I don't think it is too large a sum to try to raise in, say, 9 years.

For me, this is the first image that most people come in contact with the L&BR. I think if this is handled in the right way is could become a very powerful image in its own right, and I think it could bring more support to the project itself.

Used in the first instance as part of a much bigger overall project view, and then playing up the tourist and job generation benefits for North Devon, I think, this might just work.

What do you guys think?

 

Currently we have LYN - and very nice too. However IMHO the MWs have always been the key icons of the L&B and I would have much preferred that one of those had been built first - but we are where we are, as they say.

Apparently the next up is EXE - fine. But, after that, I would suggest that it would be better to have LEW. That way, we would have examples of the original L&BR design of MW and the later SR version of the MW, as well as the Baldwin - in other words, all three variants of historic L&BR motive power.

Meanwhile, we can decide where we want - or be able - to run them all

 

I think it's a lovely idea, and has a lot going for it as a historical recreation.

But it is not a fundraising tool. Raising £5m demands significant fundraising, which would eat into the capacity to raise money for other projects (like extensions) - potentially leaving both short.

I also query the wider significance of the MWs in the general public's consciousness. They form a wonderful image, and I'm sure I'm not alone in having a mind's eye picture of the MWs in Maunsell Green. But I'm not sure that has a specific appeal outside a narrow circle - hence my reservation about using this to drive visibility.

Ultimately, as was the case in Lynbarn and initial Woody Bay days, getting going will require some quick & dirty compromises, which will generate cash, which will then support "proper" restorations.

 

My understanding was that they wanted to do all four in one go, so it was natural to start with the first and work their way through from EXE to LEW, coming back to my point about building all four Manning Wardles and getting the support to do so just has not happen so unless someone comes up with a novel way to raise the money it is never going to happen. Hence, my call to build other non-L&BR locos that could or would attract support for them from the narrow gauge world as a whole and also provide the L&BR with a useful roster of steam locos.

Even the FR relies on non FR built locos (an Alco, the two ladies and LYD all come to mind) to operate it and the WHR services, so why can't the L&BR follow the same pattern?

I would agree with this, as I do sometimes think that the L&BRT is somehow trying to run before it can walk in these heritage circles. Most projects start with something small (something industrial) and a couple of ex BR MK1 Coaches (again, there is not a 2ft gauge shop of carriages) or, in our case, the Lynbarn style carriages to start with.

To get to the next level in this railway's development, it will be a much bigger problem than most 2ft gauge lines have faced. The problem we have is that in the UK, it is very hard to find suitable-sized steam locos that the L&BR can use for some time (what I would call Colonial tank size).

Now I don't want to replicate the WHR with NGG16s in North Devon, since we would lose the USP of the L&BR, but it might just be that we will finally have to go in that direction for commercial reasons.

Before that happens, I can only think of three locations that may be able to help out with Colonial-sized steam locos in the UK:-

Collection X
Statfold
or the Welsh Highland Heritage Group at Portmadoc.

Now, unless someone has something stashed away in a barn, then I don't recall anyone else having any big 2ft gauge steam locos that could become available to the L&BR. What we could do with is another Sir George-sized loco.

This discussion is turning into a chicken-and-egg saga. Do you build an extension but can't operate it, because you don't have enough locomotives and rolling stock, or do you buy another steam locomotive to have it ready once the proposed extension has been built

 

Colin, I'm sorry to say this, but you are really doing my head in, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. It all sounds like wishful thinking, desperately looking to bend a perceived "problem" towards your evident "solution", which is somewhere to install random Collection X items to somehow save the day for the L&B. You may find that you are the only individual wishing to go down this route.
The 762 appeal was only ever for x2 Manning Wardles. I recall this quite distinctly. The remaining 2 were only to be built much later. So your assertion about lack of interest is, at least, disingenuous.

Please, just knock it on the head for now. It's not some random product from Dübs we need, or Orenstein & Koppel. Really. It's trackbed, and a management team who are clearly able to not just negotiate the planning process with confidence, but crucially, to engage with the community in an open and trustworthy manner.

 

Seems to me that any suggestion to pursue the recreation of the full range of original L&B motive power, (plus Axe and Sir George) along with a complete suite of carriages when the running line goes from nowhere to nowhere across a field and is landlocked by unsympathetic landowners, ranks as a folly equal to any attempt to recreate the HP42 and reintroduce back it into scheduled airline service.

To this simpleton, it would be seemly, before anything else, for all the different factions currently seeking to reinstate the line to agree a common set of principles and proposals for a way forward, and then follow this up with a binding memorandum of agreement and individual plans of action.

If you want landowner and local support you might have to hold your nose and find a way to make the reinstatement of the line useful to them, rather than it simply being the painstaking recreation of the heritage line. That perhaps means revisiting the original raison d’etre - serving remote communities with a cheap and effective transport system. Instead of yet more MWs, and heritage carriages, first design and (subsequently) build small comfortable and quiet diesel/electric/hybrid railcars than can provide a suitable rail service that overlays the heritage operation and is actually useful to those who fear disruption from the railway.

Chicken and egg but you have to find a way to start extending beyond the limited running track currently extant - and if you can demonstrate your commitment and intentions to provide a regular modern passenger and/or freight service, however limited, in the longer term then that might be the catalyst to begin to shift the log jam

But hey……what do I know!

 

The historic L&B wasn't all that good at serving local communities, which is why it closed. Parracombe station is in Parracombe, and Barnstaple Town station was pretty much as convenient for the main line as could be. All the other stations were a country mile from the communities they claimed to serve. The railway competed reasonably against the horse drawn transport of the 1890s, but as soon as the lorry and motor bus came to Devon, that was it.
Today it is very difficult to lure people away from their very convenient private cars and on to public transport. Potential passengers are often unwilling to walk a half mile to catch a bus for the next 6 miles to work.
In some towns, car parking has been removed, and what remains is ruinously expensive. Clean, modern, reliable buses run every 10-15 minutes on arterial routes, with some fare-subsidy, but still people will not change. Vehicle tax and insurance costs have risen alarmingly, meaning simply owning a car has a significant price tag, but behaviour remains unchanged. Even if the L&B were offering a half hourly service right to Barnstaple,7 days a week, I would bet strong money that your comfortable and quiet railcars would run all but empty.
There are plenty of locals who could benefit from the restored L&B, but these are all people who are, one way or another, serving the tourism industry. A unique railway running through the beautiful Exmoor countryside would draw visitors from all over, and whilst the railway might be the main reason for visiting, they would stay and spend money visiting other attractions, and all local people can see the advantage that tourist spend brings.

 

“A unique railway running through the beautiful Exmoor countryside would draw visitors from all over, and whilst the railway might be the main reason for visiting, they would stay and spend money visiting other attractions, and all local people can see the advantage that tourist spend brings”.

Except that it seems not, otherwise there would be no impediment to extending the line.

 

I’ve viewed this forum for a few years as a bystander, and I’ve finally decided to create and account to add my 2 cents. Forgive me if I miss anything or getting anything wrong.

I live in the states, and one of the projects that is the most exciting here to railfans is the East Broad Top RR (EBT) in Pennsylvania. This was a 3 ft narrow gauge coal railroad essentially left in stasis in the mid 50's because the scrapper who bought the railroad decided to keep it. It was run as a tourist railroad on a very short segment of the original line for decades, and after a decade of dormancy, the railroad was bought by new owners in 2020, and they are making progress in restoring track and connecting communities that haven't seen the trains run there since 1956. It's resulted in tons of enthusiasm, and importantly, donations.

(Side note: For the people on this forum who enjoy historical accuracy, it may be in America, but I implore you to do a brief search on that railroad because that's about as historically accurate as you can get: locomotives, rolling stock, bridges, the edwardian era shop complex, tools, and so on.)

Back to the L&B: the easiest thing I think the L&B can do in the public conscience, even if the effects aren't immediate, is to not only be a good neighbor (keeping clean, being respectful, and so on), but to have a presence within the communities at large wherever possible. Generate local interest, get the people who may not be on your side to show up on their own accord and at least say "I see why they want it". It doesn't have to be running trains, it can be participating in local events like having a booth at a festival, or supporting local businesses in the communities along the route. Perhaps host an event at a local pub or restaurant wink wink.

The reason I mention the EBT is that I see a lot of parallels with that railroad, and the L&B. The EBT have made it a goal to have presences in the towns along the line. For the past few years on memorial day, they've hosted speeders at a local carnival in one town on a portion of unrestored track: they cut flanges through the dirt to reach the rail that's still in place, and added some steel ties to operate about 500 feet of track or so just for that. In another town; the short term endpoint for their current track restoration goals, they've shown they mean business by reconstructing the old depot that sat there. It's a demonstration to the community of their intentions, as well as to donors. Even just last year, they restored track that runs across the grounds of a high school (secondary school for you Brits) and ran a few special school services this past fall; The kids get taken to the big main station on the line, and ride the train across the recently restored track right to the front of the school. And for the person who mentioned the museum, they also have a museum at the southern terminus of the original railroad, so I think the idea of having a museum at Blackmoor is an excellent idea.

Naturally, I'm not suggesting the L&B run school trains on the front lawn of a school, and maybe this is a level of ignorance on my part and the L&B is doing a few things within the communities that I did not know about, but my point is that the railway needs to have a good communal presence if it is to reach its ambitions (particularly in Parracombe). It can't just be its own thing that runs past a town or uses it as a means to an end. Even if it doesn't change many minds, at the very least it could help increase awareness of the project and help all parties understand what you're about and why you want to do it, as well as answering rebuttals respectfully, and eliminating any false beliefs people may have about it.

Otherwise, the people saying "they just want to run choo choo trains" may have a point. I do agree about a track extension though; if anything to demonstrate movement to your donors or potential donors.

 

That's a sound angle you're coming from, and absolutely right- it is about Community engagement, something which has been glaringly lacking over the years, and something which a reforming Trust is going to have it's work cut out to turn around. It can be done, but it will take much time to achieve. At the southern end of the line, fortunately the Trust working on that section does not have the same issues to overcome, progress is being made. I have confidence for future, but it will take time to bring certain individuals, even if not fully on board, then at least a little nearer to the negotiating table.
Meantime, I must look up the East Broad Top Railroad, for it sounds like a very interesting concern. Perhaps one which we could here in turn, learn from