North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

And I conversely happen to think you are moralising ****, but that's just a personal thought and I try to put it to one side unless provoked, and will still try to answer you. In terms of the NYMR I am deeply dismayed by what has gone on in recent years in terms of a particular former chairman and the last two CEOs. They who seem to me have displayed poor judgement, both in their choice of certain several short-lived members of staff and in terms of their financial and marketing management. However, I regard myself as a reasonable person and I would be interested in hearing what you think they have done right - but if my initial summary at the start of this piece is right I rather doubt that you will indeed be able to do so! @Lineisclear is no longer contributing to this forum, not because I have driven him away but more because the NYMR Trust and Plc Boards have collectively chosen to close their ears and minds to any forms of external criticism.

 

I think the mods should intervene as close down this discussion

 

I agree we should close this particular exchange. 60044 has made his point many times, we know his opinion of the current management.

Could we get back to discussing the actual Railway now please? It's going to be an interesting year!

 

If we close down debate, it will only flare up elsewhere. Don't like it? Don't read it

 

Like them are not, @60044 's posts are about the railway.

@Lineisclear has been persistently evasive in his posts, and I am grateful to @60044 and others who have tried to elucidate what is probably going on. I was once a regular visitor and contributor to the NYMR, but no longer; last year was the first in decades that my wife and I did not go.

 

I'd also suggest that for those of us involved with managing other railways, there are clear lessons to learn and things to understand in this. Suggesting it's closed down intimates lack of interest or head in sand attitude, which we can do without. Let it run I say unless it's defamatory or untrue. It's the mods call of course, I respect that.

 

Up to a point. What would be useful is for the railway to up its game in sharing information with its supporters, and to work to build trust with those supporters.

The actions of the NYMR's leadership are what have brought this about, and it is they who have the ability to turn that perception around. @60044, or @Sawdust, or I, or any of us may be irrecoverable, but the overwhelming sense I get is of thwarted love for the railway as it risks losing something really important.

Shut the conversation down, and the issues won't go away. Other railways are much more open and, strangely enough, are better at mobilising supporters, donations, and opinion. There's a lesson there.

 

I find the NYMR such a frustrating railway in recent times. I'm currently a member of three railways including this one. Of the three the NYMR is historically my favourite, the one I would choose to live next to if I could. The combination of the landscape its set in, the wonderful towns at each end, the big engines that are required make it stand out to me. I, on my own, could lose weeks during running season here.

Despite that though, of the three, its the one I actually have visited the least since Covid. Most of that has been because of ill thought out pricing decisions, lack of comms about what's running early enough, lack of smaller events that I or my family are interested in, and the general lack of a full day out for the family. While I am an supporter of the line, my family need more than just hourly or sometimes now two hourly trains.

My Moors line hasn't come yet (Royal Mail is not what it was!) and I'm lucky (?) enough to be a life member, so any membership increase won't hit me. But if I wasn't I'd really like to know what I would be getting extra. Why would I travel past the KWVR to visit the Moors for example? And why would I renew my £60 adult membership with them against my KWVR £80 family one with its massively greater perks? I'm also closer to the East Lancs, and about the same distance to the Great Central as I am to the NYMR. What are the NYMR doing better than them? I really don't know.

The current appeal is a mess of bad comms when compared to just about any other railway appeal in recent times. I gave to the Green Knight appeal expecting some sort of regular update which was promised, but other than a certificate shortly afterwards, I've never heard anything else about it other than from this forum. Then throw in the frankly distasteful attitude they have towards the teaks, the culture of fear thats bred into any volunteer or member of staff that speaks out. It's just not nice. I doesn't encourage me to visit.

I really want to support the line and have given to appeals in the past, as well as having had membership for a very long time now. Why do they insist of making it so hard to keep supporting them?

The current management seem to forget that members are a source of knowledge, support and finance. A good portion of visitors to the railway will be either with members, or because members pointed them that way. A high portion of volunteers have been members before they stepped up, even if they aren't required to stay members. And finally, members are a regular source of donations, to appeals, posthumously or sometimes just because they can. Surely that is a pool of people to look after and nurture. Not put off?

Apologies that has turned into a bit of a rant, but I really want the NYMR to succeed. If you could bottle the positivity of Piglet and Nick and spread that out to the rest of the Senior leadership it would be a much better place.

 

Absolutely agree @35B.

I'm sure NYMR will be pleased to shut down this thread.

I have been a supporter, member and volunteer. I remain a supporter and wish it well.
Openness is key to the success of preservation railways. The appeal of the NYMR, and others, was that it was open about its challenges and this helped it gather support. Preservation was a refreshing antidote to the opaque closed management style of BR.

As a supporter, who loves the railway I'm watching it take some very poor decisions and make thumping losses. Bring back Philip Benham.

 

They could start off with their Facebook page - they're getting absolutely savaged on the latest post about the bridge.

Talking of Facebook, a post on the KWVR page yesterday made me think - when was the last time the NYMR publicly praised their volunteers? KWVR post every few days about their volunteers, asking for new ones, suggesting you join the society. All positive, outward looking, investing in the future. Last night I had a look back through the NYMR's postings. The last post specifically praising volunteers? June!

 

My view of being a member of a heritage railway was to support them with a bit of recurring cash, whether it be monthly or yearly. And in return you get a small perk or two. A magazine keeping you informed, early knowledge of special trains, or maybe some kind of discount.

Your view seems to be you are paying for a magazine / newsletter and that's it. Which is fine, im not saying im right and you're wrong, we just seem to have a different viewpoint on what being a member means.

I dont see £5 a month as a luxury item, maybe in the past but, as it's less than a cup of coffee I just dont see it that way. Almost everything has gone up by 2.2x in the last 8-10 years.

Equally a heritage railway IS a luxury item, they certainly aren't needed to keep the country going. In the grand scheme of things it's a nice to have, unless you live in Southwold then its a prime example of nimbyism but I digress.

Im happy to agree to disagree and move on. Maybe a tiered system would work. Have a level of membership which just gets you a newsletter in whatever form. And a level of membership that actually gives a little bit to the coffers, maybe coming with an extra perk or two.

I'd be interested to see the actual numbers on how many people would be put off by the rise in membership costs.

The bottom line on the NYMR situation is this, they lost around £400k last year. I know there were the fires which lost revenue due to not being able to run steam in the high season. There are external factors at play so it is not entirely managements fault.
The loss of revenue problem needs to be fixed and soon, without retracting from what the railway offers, without anyone losing a job, and without everyone falling out over it.

 

I'll pose some simple questions, that hopefully will not cause too much offence but will provide some sensible responses!

Firstly, the deficit mentioned. It's not so very different to previous years, and comes readily provided with another excuse (and probably would have been double the figure without the visit of 4472). So what can be done to reduce it, and what do you think has been done to reduce it? Whitby traffic had been holding up well at least until last years price rise, but still wasn't enough. Should they bite the bullet and increase prices again, or should they be looking to promote intra-NYMR travel, for example? Should they be looking to use the teak carriages more to add interest on those services?

Your last point really opens it up for you: How do you fix the revenue problem "without retracting from what the railway offers, without anyone losing a job, and without everyone falling out over it" FWIW, I don't think this is a circle that can be squared painlessly. People are already falling out over it, and anything that reduces the heritage content, rather than building it up, reduces the attraction of the railway to visitors. They want more o it, it's what draws them there!.

Finally, attention has been drawn to poor decision making in various areas, in particular fare levels - well, who makes those decisions? Who determines the advertising policies and campaigns? Who determines paid staff levels? Who communicates with members and volunteers?All these areas come back to the paid staff, and imho if they are doing a poor job they deserve to be publicly criticised - in fact I'd go further and say they deserve to be pilloried!

 

I wish it were going to be so simple.

The railway has tried to push prices up, and then had to discount significantly - which suggests that more income will be tied to getting more people in, rather than upping prices. That's why I, with others, are less than convinced that raising membership prices is likely to increase income.

As a charity trustee who's had to deal with a deficit situation, looking closely at costs is vital - even if the core problem is income. That is why I really doubt that it's possible to turn this round painlessly, and why the focus does need to be on management for how they have responded to those challenges.

No one blames the railway management for the impact of fires or drought conditions - they're obviously external factors that can't be legislated for. But if managers are getting a consistent run of bad luck, it is necessary to consider whether that really is just bad luck, or something more.

 

I personally think the management have got stuck in the cutting mentality. Rather than really focus on how to pull people in they cut services and operating days. Not running everyday of the school holidays at least for the local area is always going to be an own goal. Having big gaps between available trains is also going to cause issues for anyone visiting. Imagine getting off at Levisham and finding out there isn't another train for two hours! Great if you are a walker but for anyone else that's a lot of time to burn. Oh and then you go to get on that train and realise its the Diner with no standard seats!

Whilst I genuinely think there was an effort last year in trying new and different events, there hasn't been enough learning from what works elsewhere (or even what worked before at the NYMR), there hasn't been an effort to see the railway from a customers point of view. I think they literally need to do an experiment of 'visiting' the railway as a customer would. Do it at least once starting from each different station and see what you can actually visit in the time frames between trains.

They need to sell a day out at the railway, but I don't think they know what they are and subsequently are not offering in many areas.

Once you start cutting things its very hard to stop. The famous example that springs to mind is Beeching!

 

You cannot cut your way to success. You can only cut to free up space to invest. It’s a truth that is often missed.

 

I’d have to disagree with you there.

It’s what you want. It’s what I, and I expect the majority on here would like to see too, but we don’t comprise the majority source of income to the railway. That’s Joe Public and family. They want a ride behind a steam loco, in a warm comfortable carriage with some nice scenery to look at and a destination that keeps the kids entertained. They’re not really bothered if the loco and stock are prototypical for the line or not.

Take a look at the outfits that are solvent, some more than just staying afloat too. I volunteer at the Churnet Valley, they cater mainly for the public, operating mostly clean Mk1’s with S160s, through scenic valleys and moorland, and of late are doing very nicely thank you.

This is largely due to running Diners and Polar Expresses with well targeted advertising and reasonable prices. IIRC the Polars alone carried 70k happy punters this winter. There are also themed events eg Easter Extravaganza with the Easter Bunny, Alice in Wonderland etc. All these events are produced to a professional standard and feature paid actors, computerised lighting etc as required.

Now this set up might not be your or my preferred cup of Yorkshire Tea, but it doesn’t half pay the bills, provides excellent PR too, and allows a lot of us to pursue our hobby for making a small pragmatic comprise.

 

Moorsline has arrived with me in Scotland today. Membership rates are confirmed as £60 member, £100 joint, £20 junior from 1 March 2026. Additionally there is now an option to receive Moorline digitally, with a note that new members requesting printed copies will incur an additional charge.

 

I'm not entirely disagreeing, but I agree with another previous statement and I'd qualify your statement i the light of it by adding - you don't cut ack on opportunities to make money but at the same time you watch the expenditure very carefully, and I, for one, cannot see how the NYMR can justify 7 members of advertising staff - the the figure that @Steve quoted is correct - that's 5% of the staff - at a time when visitor numbers are falling or at best static

 

What you say is probably true about the casual family visitors who I don't think anyone provides the bulk of the fare income in all the ways you mention - but they are not the ones looked to for more substantial donations, legacies etc.

It's interesting that you mention the Polar Express and the like - the NYMR has eschewed this and belatedly realised that they need to move with the times, but they have been overtaken and beaten by other more local lines, and I'm told that their "home grown" production, despite using paid actors in recent times, has not struck a resounding chord with the paying public, despite the number of trains being scaled down - and nor have any of their efforts at Easter bunnies, dinosaurs etc. Another point of failure from the management team imho, I'm afraid.