End of steam question - perception

Following on from the 760077 thread.

When did the knowledge that steam was really going to end in a finite time window fully percolate through?

Clearly no one specific answer fits all

 

The publication of 'The Modernisation Plan for British Railways' in 1955?

 

I would wager that Most of the population wouldn t have been aware there was an end date.

 

Most of the population probably did not care.

 

Was thinking slightly more railway-focussed, but thinking of that weld on 77067, did the welder think "sod it, that'll hold for a few years and it'll be scrapped by then"

There's references in the various reminiscences books about the writers talking about colleagues very happy to not come home covered in muck and exhausted. It must have been very unsettling to be working in places that were going to be not only closed, but completely replaced by a different technology.

 

My dad recalls reading about that as a school boy and not putting 2 and 2 together that lots of diesels meant no steam

 

It's probably a bit like asking when petrol engine cars will come to an end.

 

The replacement of steam with diesel was a classic British muddle. How long do you want to talk about it? It's now water under the bridge.

 

That's the whole point of a forum like this. People can go on talking about stuff for as long as they want to.

 

The simple answer to the OP's question is "3 years before I was born", because that's when LT finally got rid of steam.

The more interesting question, coming out of the thread this came out of, is how that consciousness changed. This was the era of the "white heat of technology", yet many pictures suggest a country that still in many ways belonged to the pre-war era. That suggests, a picture I remember my parents and grandparents both shared with me, a society in transition. How that affected peoples' perceptions is genuinely interesting - far more so than the actual transition.

 

It would depend upon which bit of BR we are talking about. For the South Western the announcement of the Bournemouth Electrification (with a planned implementation of Dec 1966) would have done the trick. It's little wonder that some footplatemen started buying cameras. One Guildford driver, Lew Woolridge, went one better and bought a Super 8 movie camera. His footage was eventually issued on DVD by SVS. It it mainly concerned with Guildford Loco. and its men, but worth a watch if you come across it.
Didn't the WR GM announce a finish date for steam on his region (somewhat messed up with his inability to get shot of the S&JR when he had hoped). I don't imagine that he was telling anyone anything that they hadn't worked out for themselves.
Pat

 

The motive power may have changed but the railway didn't change much after the end of steam. These thoughts are based on the post by 35B

All records were completely manual until the early 1970's. In 1974 I started on a steam age railway without steam locos. Records were kept in ledger books and daily freight vehicle returns were read over to the divisional office every day. Many stations, even on minor lines were staffed from the first to last service for penny numbers of passengers. The traditional Station Managers were capable of staffing their ticket offices and doing the weekly returns, shunting a freight train and working the signal boxes in their patch. ( Thank you to SM's Baker, Briggs and Everett for encouraging my interest, and often turning a blind eye.) Many staff only rose one or two grades in their entire career and promotion in the clerical and footplate grades was reliant on "dead mens shoes" promotion.
TOPS was the first nationwide computer system on BR which was introduced between 1973 and 1976 along with payroll input and records which were introduced shortly afterwards. Both were seen as the wonder of the age and some area managers took great delight in showing off the new computer systems to the local business communities.
I retired in 2017 with many data systems and terabytes of data circulating but without enough experienced staff to interpret the information! For all the technology it still needs a driver in the cab and boots on the ballast to fix the track circuit fault or examine the earth slip.

Cheers, Neil

 

Yes, it's amazing looking back how much the railway into the 80s was still a steam railway without the steam.

It's interesting to me as a historian as we have reams of material on what certain self-selecting people thought (prinicipally footplate crew who enjoyed the job), and very little from others.

Mind you "not another bl**dy in that bl**dy filthy shed" wouldn't be a catchy title for a book.

When you hear about Pete Townsend working miracles at KX top shed, the wider context isn't as well-recorded.

 

Given that the whole thing was largely a PR/political exercise I would have thought there would have been plenty of publicity.

As long as the train were reliable, I don't suppose they did care how that was achieved.

 

How many of the population today are aware of GBR and what it means. Around 50 % of the population never use the train, the rest as you say probably just want a reliable service. There will be a few whose political dogma (incl RMT) who will see it as a "leap forward", but at the end of the day I suspect most expect nothing will change.

 

I have no recollection of any great publicity at the time. I think it is like so many things in life, there will be a (small) percentage of the population who are interested in a subject (in this case steam) and be aware and the rest of the population will not be aware and/or uninterested.


Also remember we were in an era of no internet and the like.

 

It is sometime since I contributed to this forum, partly because the site decided apparently
that I should not contribute as ‘Maunsell907’ and partly ennui.

However this set of postings resonated.

As a fifteen year old I was very much aware of the 1955 Modernisation plan. It confirmed
views that the beloved steam locos had a limited life. Initially prognostications of doom
appeared misplaced. Steam locomotive building continued apace. Improvements in
steam hauled timetables continued.

Living and attending boarding school in the South I was well aware of the various
third rail electrification schemes but in the North and particularly Scotland steam
appeared reasonably secure. On the Southern steam performance continued to
improve, especially from Waterloo,, although there were some sparkling steam
performances in Kent right up to the completion of Stage 2 electrification in 1961.

In 1960 attendance at the University of Wales in 1960 changed personal observation.
Very indifferent steam performance overall, notably the Pembroke Coast Express
( compare and contrast.the Atlantic Coast Express )the gradual appearance of
diesel traction, Paddington’s statement that the Western Division would be first
to replace steam ( at the same time Swindon was finishing the last of the 9Fs !)

Returning to South East and a full time job in 1963 it was then onvious that
the end of steam. Life became a balance I.e. work, more study, rugby and
chasing steam. The last steam I timed was in August 1967. 5MTs Carlisle
to Preston return ( I was working at Grangemouth for two months ). At
least I had the excitement of 91mph descending south from Shap. Whilst
steam survived for another twelve months I only noticed it in passing.
whilst travelling through the North West.

So yes the fall from 1955 to 1968 was a continuing driver on my life, to the
‘man on the Clapham Omnibus’ littlechanged. MK1s were MK1s, there was
acceleration of some services but the big change did not really impact I
suspect until the introduction of HST’s on the Western in 1976.

As others have noted the infrastructure changed little for a time. TOPS and
the HST probably represent the indicators of significant change.

The introduction of diesel rosters had one surprising effect, The slow
progress through the grades, cleaner to drive disappeared. Many of the older
men opted for the cleanliness etc of modern motive power. Two Nine Elms
drivers who I knew reasonably well were my age and driving amongst other
trains the one stop Bournemouth trains in 1966/67. I used to discuss the day
with one after travelling back to Waterloo from Bournemouth on the 18.33.
He lived in Three Bridges, I in Wivelsfield. We both knew we were witnessing
the demise of something dear to our hearts.

As a final thought if you had told me in 1967 that I would in 2000 travel behind
six different Bulleid Pacific’s and spend much of my retired life with steam on a
Heritage Railway I would have laughed.

Yes to me 1955 was very significant to the Great British Public no

Michael Rowe

 

I am a little younger than Michael and the Modernisation Plan passed unnoticed by me and my friends. We spent much of our free time spotting from KX to Wood Green. Further afield was limited by our lack of money, and we were somewhat prejudiced against anything that did not have LNER genes. Towards the end of the 50s, as the diesels arrived in dribs and drabs, we noted the change, but were unconcerned until Cravens started replacing the N2s. As time passed, we had more money and started wandering around stations and sheds all across London. There were plenty of interesting locos to find that previously we had only seen in the Combined Volume. But, other factors were coming into play; we were developing interests in music, scooters, motorcycles, and GIRLS! We still went spotting, and even further afield, but our interest was declining. In any case, the Pacifics still dominated the ECML, so all was well. Then came the Deltics, and in 63 the closure of Top Shed. We knew the end was nigh! I chose a northern university, so I could see steam's swansong, but motorcycles and girls became more important, and although I saw much of the end in West Yorkshire, and then the WC finale in August 68, I later regretted that it hadn't been more.

 

I am younger still than most of the posters who have recorded their memories of their perception of the imminence of the end of steam, being only nine years old when 35030 rolled into Waterloo on 9th July 1967. I knew nothing about this at the time, nor of the 15 Guinea Special the following year, but I have a curious, almost uncanny memory probably from 1967, although I cannot give an exact date:-

Neither of my maternal grandparents could drive. They lived in Overton and after one stay with us, my father drove them from our home in Dorking to Woking station and I came along for the ride. We went on to the platform and saw them off. Don't ask me what loco took them on to Basingstoke. I don't have a clue, I didn't notice whether it was steam, diesel or electric and wasn't even particularly interested, being far more enthused about space travel at that time, but something has lodged in my memory that whatever took Grandma and Grandpa back home, this was the last occasion I saw a steam loco in regular BR service. I will never be able to prove this, but I have what you might call a sixth sense that it is true.