P2 Locomotive Company and related matters

One of the major reasons for the failure of the original P2 was the fact that the incoming steam was cooled by the exhaust, due to poor design. This has been studiously avoided in the new design.

 

Dont recall that the P2's were in any way considered a failure (performance wise) or that there was any trouble, such as priming due to ' cool steam' present in the cylinders.
Efficiency may well have suffered...but the main reason they were converted iirc was that they had poor mechanical reliability...
Given the revised pony truck arrangement, beefed up crank axle and roller bearing axleboxes one hopes that the new P2 is a more reliable vehicle - though simply strengthening weak areas does sometimes kick the can further down the road....

 

Do we foresee the P2 hauling 15 or 16 coaches out of Stonehaven any time soon...

Its still a 1930s design fundamentally, but with modern materials and processes. Iv every confidence it will run as well as, or better, than tornado.

On the valve gear piece, id be more inclined to hunt for someone to do a motion/CFD study on that, than go to the expense of making up a physical working model...

 

I’d expect there to be some FEMA work done first too.
I still think that running a cam and follower rig would give better confidence in the material selection too though.

 

The whole reason for building her from memory, was her ability to get a 12/13 coach train from a standstill to 75mph as quick as possible, to fit in with the modern railway, pathing, and any restrictions.
Something Tornado can do with ease, and not resort to the old heave ho.
Lets hope we get to see that in the flesh.

 

Come on, you don't really believe that do you? No steam loco can go from 0 to 75 mph in anything like the time that it takes modern traction units to achieve this. The acceleration characteristics of any steam loco, no matter how modern and efficient they are, bears no resemblence to that of current passenger trains. If it takes a modern dmu or emu a mile to reach 75mph it will probably take even a lightly loaded steam loco five miles to reach that speed - and that is true every time it slows down and has to accelerate again. The achilles heel of steam on the modern railway is not how fast it can go but how long it takes to achieve that speed. Hence the apparent increase in the use of diesel assistance to get steam trains on the move and out of the way of following traffic.

That is the reality of steam on the 21st century network and it isn't going to get any better.

Peter

 

Theres a challenge for the running in turn - 0 - to 60 with 4 on at the GCR... come to think of it, get 71000 on the other line/ lane and have an Aussie style 'Steam Drag'... Sorry ' nurse ! wheres me pills ? ...'

 

You mean adding a set of wheels doesn't fundamentally change the laws of physics?

As we've already established that this is a P2/4, i.e. a new sub class, then perhaps a few other modifications might be permitted? No one would notice changing steel tyres to soft rubber slicks, would they?

(Or perhaps sacrifice a few thousand gallons of water and a few tons of coal in the tender, and use the space to bury a 2000hp motor-generator set ...)

Tom

 

I did not say that, what was described was to be in a position to accelerate to 75mph as quick as possible, within the envelope of a Steam Locomotive.
And in doing that be able to keep to a path, and cut down on stops, to let faster traffic past.

 

I agree that building a rig and prototypes is prudent - there are often a lot of things that become apparent when you build physical parts and assemble them that aren’t obvious when you are designing in CAD, and revisions can be made with relatively low cost and delay.

 

So why did you say it was something Tornado can do with ease and not need "the old heave ho"?? It frequently can't keep out of the way of other traffic any more so than any comparable size steam loco. This isn't a problem if everything is running smoothely and there is little other traffic about but that is often not the case. I dearly love anything to do with steam locomotives but the cause is not helped by unrealistic expectations of their abilities on the modern network. There are too many rose tinted glasses being worn in some quarters.

Peter

 

Make it 3000 hp genset and traction motors under the tender floor.
You can then have 25 paying spectators on tender.
Boiler can be a cheap steel sausage heated with cheap ,green electricity during nigth and can make realistic noises and smells during showtime.
Modern ship diesels often use electro hydraulic actuators to accelerate much heavyer valves faster and longer.

 

Since I discovered the concept, I'm amazed Bulleid never built a Heilman for the west of England line

http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/heilmann/heilmann2.htm

 

You been reading 21B's post in the New build M&GN C class thread?

 

Thinking laterally ... The Swiss converted some steam locos during the war to use cheap electricity to boil water in the boiler.

So if you combined that concept with a Turbomotive enhancement of the Heilmann, you could run under the wires on the ECML with a pantograph to collect electricity to boil water in the boiler. The steam produced could then be run through a turbine to make electricity to power traction motors to drive the locomotive. No more nasty reciprocating masses, and if you condensed the waste steam, range would essentially be unlimited, which would certainly help with pathing.

Why has no-one thought of this before?

Tom

 

TBF Peter, prior to the overhaul, the old heave ho, was something that could never be levelled at Tornado, it mostly ran mostly unassisted, and put in some great performances.
Those are not rose tinted glasses, they are facts, what has changed, maybe timetables have been speeded up, but as a loco to get from rest to 0-75mph, they were not many better.
If the P2 can do the same, or slightly better, it has a place on the mainline, i feel areas of the mainline will be blacked out, unless "heave ho" is instigated.
York - Edinburgh is a case in point, especially north of Newcastle, the warning should be, many more will follow.

 

I think that that was more because of a shortage of imported coal.

 

Going back to why we’re building a P2 ….
Wasn’t there an element of “we can run with the A1 up to Newcastle, then the P2 can take over to Aberdeen” ? Weekend tours etc?

 

Isn't that more of a second-order reason? I think most people put in for the P2 as it will be a massively impressive beastie when finished and/or a chance to right the perceived wrongs of what happened to the original locos?
Did anybody really put up cold hard cash to fill an operational niche that could be solved in lots of other ways

FWIW, I think nothing less of people who paid up to see that behemoth finally properly unleashed.

For Douglas Adams fans, the reasons look like the murkier reason as to Wayforward Technology's financial foundations

https://scifi.stackexchange.com/que...u-provide-facts-and-the-conclusion-you-want-t

[Edit: Douglas Adams reference and link added]

 

@Bikermike - I said an ‘element of ’ it certainly wasn’t the raison d’etre ! Like most other founders I wanted to build it to witness first hand a mythical beast brought back to life minus its weaknesses.