BR Scottish Region Cabside Numerals

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As the person who changed 44806 to 44801 for SS&S2 i really don't know what to say.

Yes i was aware that the cabside numbers on Scottish Fives were different as this was told to me quite early on. Unfortunately her transformation into her Scottish sister was only meant to be temporary so i could not effect a more permanent change what might of met your high standards.

To round up. Thanks for the slight, yesterday i lent the person in question the numberplate and shed plate for him to use and fixed them on the Black 5 myself, it was a lot easier than last time. My changing her for the gala was to enhance the Scottish feel and was done quickly and fairly cheaply. Just one of the little things that we did to enhance the gala experience.

Next you'll be moaning about the wooden numberplate.

 

23E's post is rivet counting in the extreme. I have in front of me a photo of a 63A Perth Black 5 45472 ex works. The photo was taken in 1958 at St Rollox. It has 8" numerals and a 5MT power classification on the cabside. Incidentially, Cowlairs was the works that put the MPD name on the bufferbeam. It even put the depot name on some English Black 5s that went up there for overhaul. As most of us know, every Class 5 was different. There were no set rules for this Class of loco.
To be pedantic, is the boiler on 44806 the correct one for 44801.
Mr. Broomhall, well done for your efforts at SSS2.

 

They are sister engines built in the same order on the same line at Derby and so they share the same boiler. It was one of the conditions i had to meet to be allowed to renumber her that the boilers did match up.

 

Is the loco in the correct shade of Black for you, or have we got that wrong aswell?

 

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Can you please elaborate on what you mean by rivet-counting? I think all that everyone is trying to ascertain here is a reasonably accurate impression of how a typical Scottish Region Black Five should look, the representation of which, I understand, is intended for a forthcoming photo-charter on the Llangollen Rly.
I really don't think that the nitty gritty details of your discovery really do matter all that much, but I will nevertheless enquire whether this picture of 45472 was one that you took yourself? If it was, then I am sure that, having gone round a few of the sheds in that area (as you undoubtedly would have done), you will have realised that the greater majority of engines did have larger numerals, although admittedly there were variations. (I did also wonder whether your photo had been taken at St Rollox Works or St Rollox MPD - for it could well have been that the engine had been sent elsewhere for overhaul. Scottish engines did come to English Works and we have plenty of evidence that it regularly occurred the other way round!)
Whatever the case may have been in that instance, don't decry the well-meaning intentions of others in attempting to get something 'just right'! Just try to raise a few 'positives' occasionally - as all the others responding to this post are attempting to do.

 

Rivet Counting - Being too picky.

Most of the visitors to SSS2 will not have noticed nor been aware of the minor differences between Scotty 5s and the rest of the class.

We needed a Scotty engine for Scottish Day, and originally we had planned to use 80072 but this fell through, so we needed an alternative. Ash then took it upon himself to agree with Mike over the use of 44806. Once agreed he then researched which Black 5s we could use. If it had been left to me we would have had 45156 as a Black 5 is just another Black 5 to me, but Ash was adament the boilers had to match. Once he had a list he then looked at which number required the least alteration, hence 44801 appeared. This was to keep costs down as with it being for 10 days only we didn't want to spend too much on this, plus we didn't have much time as it was late in the day and there was more pressing concerns to deal with for the gala.

After this he measured the various dimensions (whilst she was in service may I point out, as she was our only serviceable steamer at the time) before going away and making the plates at his own home. He got a sample of the paint used by Llan painter for the cabsides and also ordered the '1'. He did know all along about the sizes being different, but to keep it easy/cheap, the decision was taken to keep the sizes as they are.

We were not allowed to alter the number before the event, so on Thurs 16 when she was not in use the identity change occured. However, it turned out the sample Ash had been given was wrong, and hence the '1' stood out from the rest. Due to other gala issues though, we didn't have time to go start altering it till the Tuesday morning, when Neil managed to find a yellow more similar to that used on 44801. So the '1' was painted over and there was an improvement. Not perfect, but only the eagle eyed would notice.

After the gala she reverted back 44806, but then a Camera club requested the return of 44801 for their yearly charter. Not all of them are railway enthusiasts, so they too will more than likely be unaware of the differences, However upon a request for the smokebox plates I pointed out to John about the cabside differences just to let him know. With only a fortnight to go till the charter though and again it only being for the 1 evening, cheap/easy has come to the front and so she is as she is now.

If someone wants to pay though for 2 sets of cabside numerals to the correct size, and then come down and fit them to the correct spacing feel free. Meanwhile, apologies its not perfect but we have the done the best we can in the circumstances and with the limitations we have.

 

lil bear has answered the question about rivet counting. With regard to the photo of 45472, it is in one of the LMS Locomotive Profile books on the Class 5s. It was taken at St Rollox MPD.There is also a photo of 45476's cabside, complete with the Manson tablet exchanger. This, too, has 8" numerals with 5MT above it. If you read 23E's first post, 5MT indicates that the cabside was done in Scotland, not England. So there was variation of numeral sizes on Scottish locos overhauled in Scotland, although, I do agree that the majority had 10" numerals. What is required is a photo of 44801 in BR days.

 

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Great. A 9pm finish, time to go to the pub after. Im firing it by the way...

 

Hello,

45163 still carried 5MT on the cabsides when she arrived at Woodham's. It was still clearly visible in 1986.