Flying Scotsman

IIRC both Patriots and Royal Scots had seen use out of St Pancras pre 1959 but the Midland lines still held to old Midland Railway principles and for extra power a choice of 2P 4-4-0s, 4P4-4-0 Compound or Stanier Class 5 4-6-0 was favoured hence the sight of many double-headed trains on the Midland main line whether it be the named expresses or services to Nottingham, Derby or Bradford. Despite comments on this thread the Jubilees were good engines for the job and provided adequate power for the services then operated out of St Pancras; the advent of the Royal Scots in 1959 that were transferred to Kentish Town, Nottingham and Millhouses were useful support to the stock of Jubilees in many cases supporting the Jubilees by double-heading with them on the route between Nottingham / Derby and St Pancras.

 

Interesting Fred. I thought until '59 all the Scots and rebuilt Patriots were on the western section. The first locos I recall at St P bigger than a Jubilee (other than possibly a Crab on a Tilbury boat train) were 70053/4 when they got transferred to Holbeck.Peter

Edit---you are right, there were the Scots at Holbeck, 46117 etc.

 

I had the privilege of a long mainline footplate ride on Scotsman in 1987. It was in single chimney form and hauling the Pullman Rail set of Met-Cam Mk1 Pullmans (12 coaches). I well remember slowing to about 15mph to run through Water Orton East Junction. Once clear the driver pushed the regulator "into the roof". I couldn't see what the cut-off was, but acceleration was painfully slow and the driver turned to the traction inspector with a shrug of the shoulders and said "she's choked". As the safety valves were lifting my admittedly non-technical mind concluded that the draughting was holding the loco back, particularly as the gradient towards Saltley is near enough level.
After what seemed an eternity we managed to get up to 60mph, but if this was typical of a single chimney A3 I'm not surprised that a double chimney is preferred with today's network requirements.
That said, I do concur that an apple green single chimney 4472 is what most people would expect to see.

 

Good advert - book duly purchased

 

That begs so many questions about small engine vs. big engine policies, and whether the continued reliance on double heading was necessary, or merely customary.

That discussion probably belongs on another thread though, as it has very little to do with Flying Scotsman (though to bring it slightly on topic, I do note that A3s were used on the GCR at this time, which managed without the same level of double heading)

 

IIRC 6 Royal Scots were allocated to Midland Line depots in 1957 but were returned to the Western Lines within a year.

 

Until Royal Scots were drafted over from the WCML to Leeds Holbeck ,that sheds Royal Scots were rare south of Leeds. I remember the first one I saw was on a Vacuum Train test train with 16 ton coal wagons . One of the lads that worked in Kettering North box tip us off that it was booked for two class 7 s .We felt sure that it would be two of the Leeds rare ones .We had all got the WCML ones underlined in our ABC s by visiting Road and Rugby .Fingers were crossed that Sunday morning in about 1952.But it appeared with a 9A Longsight one ,piloting a Leeds one .Not so bad .
5Xs were okay until XL timings were introduced in 1957 ,with 9 mk ones they were just over the limit for one loco 300 tons ,and the driver could ask for a pilot .At that time a few 5X had there front end modified to produce more steam .But only at the expense of burning more coal. A driver at Kentish town, Mr Brooks, who used to correspond in Trains Illustrated , said about these loco's ,on the XL timings. "the fireman ceases to be a railway railway fireman ,but a steam boat coal shoveler .
The diesels soon came after that ,it was far easer for the footplate crew, and a lot lost interest with steam ,trains with steam on were nearly always late ,what ever type of loco.
By the way ,a number off Midland drivers thought the Black 5 s (known as number 5s)were just as good as 5Xs on passenger train ,in fact the Thames Clyde Express was regular a Black 5 .

 

The GCR was a lot easier road. They didn't last long.V2s preferred.

 

Do you know I nearly wrote that I thought Holbeck's Scots were for going to Carlisle and Glasgow.

I forgot to mention that Bushbury's Jubilees, 45742 etc were famous on the two hour Euston trains.

 

Including FS of course. Next time she should be turned out in early 50s condition with 38C shedplate etc. Which brings us back to the point at hand.....

 

We always assume that loco crews were keen and on top of the job. A now deceased relative was a fireman at Monument Lane and regularly fired Jubilees on the 2-hour B'ham New St - Euston expresses in the 1950's. To relieve the boredom his shedmates had a competition going. They would fill the firebox right up at New St and see how far they could get before adding any more. One character claimed that he got to Rugby before touching the fire!
Quite what this did for coal and water consumption or timekeeping is anyone's guess.

 

Far be it for me as a life long Southern enthusiat who now spends much of his time on a former
GWR branch line to intrude on a LMS/LNER spat but….

Using the late Professor Tuplin’s comparator
A3 15 minute sustained IHP = c.1900 i.e. c. 46IHP/sq. ft fire-grate
for a Jubilee c.1450 IHP = c.1450 I.e. c.c. 48 IHP/sq.ft grate.
Allowing for errors effectively the same number.

But ratio of total evaporative area to grate area
A3 83:1
Jubilee 60-64 : 1( there were variations in boiler dimensions. )

Cylinder volumes A3 4480 cubic inches.
Jubilee = 4172 cubic inches i.e. 1.07 : 1
Other ratios A3 : Jubilee.
Grate area 1.40 : 1
Evaporative area c.1.85 : 1

Adhesion ratio A3 4.49. Jubilee 5.05

If we wanted a loco to run KX - Edinburgh non-stop then the A3
If we want a loco to run Ayr Stranraer then a Jubilee.

Stating the obvious these are very different locos but I think it is difficult to
separate them in terms of overall effectiveness eg reliability, although the
Jubilee probably operated at an inferior coal/water efficiency ?

Perhaps you should compare a Jubilee with a B17 ?

Michael Rowe

 

All of which is relevant to my question about comparative performance, and what "adequate power" actually meant.

 

An easier road? Scotsman and other A3s used to do Marylebone to Manchester London Road until 1953, over Woodhead.

 

Yes.St Pancreas to Manchester London Road via Derby High Peak, Chinley.No change of loco en route.

 

Sorry,pushed wrong but.

 

That will get you a slap in most pubs…

and, it’s usually spelt “butt”. (Even in pubs!)

Anyway…Back to Scotsman, I think that outside of the rivet-counters, any configuration of hardware and livery will still draw admiration and paying customers, and perhaps even more importantly, keeping her viable and in the public eye is good for the whole heritage sector. I can see a case for returning her to apple green as a nod to her origins after 100yrs. Changing Liveries and branding has been used as an advertising tool since forever, just as making machinery run more efficiently is also a viable strategy - an extra coach is not a hard sell to the bean-counters, (yes, I know, mostly DOB…).

What do I know though? I’ve been fancying express locos of one colour that all look the same through my copper-rimmed tinted glasses!

P.S. are “bean-counters” more important than “rivet-counters”!

 

The Stratford boys used to do the same with the Britannia's out of Liverpool Street to Norwich.

 

Where can one find that comparator?