Flying Scotsman

1993 was when it happened, I can tell you this because Babcock’s where the conversion took place was quite literally down the hill, from where I lived and if you crossed the Birmingham New Road, you’d get a great view of it from the Brades estate, certainly no West Coast smoke and mirrors going on at the time.

I think Mr Kennington got Babcocks to fabricate the smoke deflectors for it at the time.
I know it’s 31 years later but I’d like to think it’s the same pair made in the Black Country all those years ago.

 

From Heaven?

 

That’s the issue

 

I think he thought so - the memory sticks even now he's 71. He can describe the day he saw it vividly.

Whilst wondering what liveries FS has carried since preservation (and finding Google not much use) I did see this:

https://www.change.org/p/restore-flying-scotsman-to-rightful-lner-livery

54 signatures

 

They’re not helping themselves with that photo, which just looks wrong.…

Simon

 

I think when it comes to Scotsman it will always be an anomaly regarding it's appearance, given no combination is truly 100% authentic, even if I do see both sides of the coin regarding the cases of each appearance.

I'd say I'm more in agreement with Simon, in that I prefer 4472 in Apple Green and single chimney condition, as I feel it does the job conveying Scotsman fame in the late 1920's/early 1930's (apart from us enthusiasts and those more eagle eyed, most wouldn't be able to tell much difference between the loco's appearances in both 1934 and 1964), but also the best part of its first 30 years of preservation (where it added to its history and fame further) and ultimately the majority of Scotsman merchandise reflects it's 4472 guise and most footage used in programmes about the loco are also of its time under Alan Pegler and Sir William McAlpine's ownerships in that condition. Another potential benefit would be that whilst that is perhaps Scotsman's most recognised form, there would also be the chance to allow the loco to carry liveries from its lesser known phases of it's working life.

On a more personal level, as someone born in 1991, I've never had the chance to see the loco in single chimney condition and having grown up watching the Preserving the Legend VHS a lot as a child, I was enamoured with Scotsman in it's Apple Green look from those Pegler films on it and when I finally got to see the loco as an 8 year old it was in the 4472/smoke deflector combination which I was never keen on (although I feel the smoke deflectors ruin the look of the loco, but that's a personal opinion), so it would be something I'd really like to see.

Whilst that's my personal preference and there isn't a guarantee that a single chimney and blast pipe will be fitted to the loco in future, it's also worth noting that a new generation are growing up only knowing Scotsman in it's current condition and if a single chimney configuration were to happen, I feel it'd also be important to keep the option of having the loco able to be to be refitted with a Double Chimney as well.

Ultimately I think the most important thing is that the loco is running and we can all enjoy it and a operational 60103 would be preferable to a static 4472.

 

Whilst there is appreciation of 4472 / 60103 running its adoption of double chimney / Kylchap blast pipe and German-style windshield are what maintains its ability to undertake main line work. Whilst many prefer the single chimney style, modern railway operations could see it subject to restricted main line service. If it is any comfort, consider its current state as the state that a forward looking Sir Nigel Gresley would have adopted as he continually sought to improve his designs.

 

Based on what Fred? What would restrict it? There’s a double chimney jubilee and a single chimney jubilee running around the network at the minute. Is their work so vastly different?

 

I was being a bit facetious with the Awdry image above, but I think there’s something in both that, and probably moreso the Hornby models many of us grew up with.

That was the Scotsman that was and is recognisable to 40 and 50-somethings, when magazine photos were black and white, and opportunities to see it in the flesh were rare. In comparison, Apple green, single chimney images would have been way more visible in everything from the toy shop window to the Argos catalogue.

Even of those old enough to have been around for the end of steam, few will have actually seen Scotsman at work in BR green, so it’s hardly surprising there’s a growing clamour for a particular ‘look’, as it’s simply more familiar to more people in the Pegler form.

That said, none of us has access to the maths the NRM will have needed to take into account to judge the optimum revenue earning capacity for Scotsman operations, their data on its performance, judgments on its strengths and weaknesses after pouring millions of quid of public money into its return to service.

We don’t know what cash is in the kitty for changes, repaints, etc., whether they’re rinsing every penny in hire fees and ticket sales to offset other costs of running the museum, etc.. for now, we know that they’ve gone to lengths to avoid over stressing it, which presumably includes optimising performance as far as possible.

Perhaps the economics of potentially ‘detuning’ it just don’t work?

Simon

 

While we are discussing future variations, can I just put in a bid for a rebuild to this form, surely the loco at peak elegance before it was afflicted by middle aged spread …



Tom

 

Il agree with you there.

 

Plenty of work out there for single chimney Black Fives and I’d wager that a single chimney 4472 would be more than equal to those so I don’t see it being restricted should she return to that form.

 

All this talk about how underpowered Flying Scotsman would be in single chimney form - I had no idea that all those trains belting up and down the ECML for the first 35 years of its life had been restricted to low speeds and just a couple of carriages - thank God they finally were able to operate the loco on proper trains after 1959 ...

Tom

 

That petition was launched in September 2022, in the hope of FS being in Apple Green in 2023. The fact that it still has only 54 signatures says something.

 

Whilst I hear what you're saying, I also choose to trust that those responsible for owning and maintaining Scotsman are doing so in the best long-term interests of the loco itself, and have access to better data on both the sustainable output of the loco and the loads and financial returns necessary to secure the right level of cash for future maintenance.

I'm no engineer, so am prepared to accept that if there is nothing more to it than bolting a different chimney on and slapping on some different paint, then it will happen in due course. If there are challenges that the owners are aware of but we're not, then I'll also be happy if it sticks with the current set-up for the foreseeable.

Simon

 

Pre-“flying wingnut” guise…

the The King is not amused!

 

Indeed, but in its (almost) GNR form I think there might be some loading gauge issues, never mind the coal consumption...

 

I suspect that there are more of us than you imagine! FWIW (not much) I think LNER apple green is an insipid livery not at all suited to the mighty A3s, or even B1s for that matter. However, I should be delighted to see a sight I missed, a single chimney, deflectorless A3 in BR blue accelerating down from Hornsey and on the through road past me standing on the platform at Wood Green.

 

That just looks gorgeous.

 

A new chimney, smokebox and blastpipe would be required, the latter is a casting and wouldn’t be cheap unless the old one has been kept somewhere