7027 Thornbury Castle

Which is why i think the GWS's governance needs serious investigation if they didn't actually buy the engine, then surely they shouldn't have made it look like they were party to it, who actually is in charge? It does raise serious questions about the GWS, if the 4709 group are a stand alone, nothing to do with Didcot, then that makes it clear, but if they are using GWS funding, with no control by the finance committee, no oversight, then that's serious, I question Didcot's aims, when there are engines that have been owned by the society since 1967, that have not steamed for many years, yet funding is going into these new builds, at the cost of the likes of say, one of their halls for instance, or the manor, or the large prairie

 

I’d be careful with your comments. What the GWS choose to focus on is a matter for them to choose, and those choices don’t say anything in themselves about the governance of the society.

In the problems over 7027, a separate question arose about whether the 4709 group are or are not part of the GWS, and how these “autonomous” groups work. For many of us, the answers that came out in public were at odds with the evidence of the accounts and our understanding of charity law. They did not, and do not, make the decisions void or unreasonable - whatever I or anyone else may think of the choices made.


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[QUOTE="Matt37401, post: 2802312, member: 24941"
I also think that should 4709 steam there’s always going to be that someone who wherever it appears will be willing to point out ‘well it’s not a real 47xx is it?’[/QUOTE]

With a hybrid A1 boiler, and 8f pony truck amongst other modifications, I'm sure a few will stand around the P2 and say just the same....

 

Well I'm surprised and deeply disappointed at the outcome as I thought Thornbury Castle would have had a legion of benefactors stepping forward ready to pick up the mantle and get her running. All that talk on here has turned out to be no more than Internet wibble and froth

 

Or, more accurately, a few have been scared off, the requirements for purchase were beyond that which could be mustered in six months for others, and time has been called.

Perhaps as suggested earlier, maybe instead of the banal back and forth including the wearying “we told you so” commentary, perhaps this thread should be drawn to a close and we should all get on with whatever else we were doing?

 

It now seems clear that the boiler will be used for 4709, but what about the bottom half? The idea of using it as the basis of a Star seems to have been abandoned. Displaying it at Didcot has been suggested, but has the GWS given any indication of what will actually be done with it?

 

Shunted to a dark part of the site, covered with a tarpaulin and forgotten about, most likily, then, someone, will once again say, lets build a star, and someone else will say, it's got no boiler, remember, at that point it will be sold for scrap to get the 4709 group out of an financial black hole, because they can't finish the part assembled 4709

 

... always look on the bright side of life!

 

I can’t help but think that the GWS has written a very dark chapter. This has all the makings of one of the more unfortunate outcomes in preservation.

 

Yeah going from a bunch of lads getting together a fund to save a 14xx to becoming essentially the national collection for the GWR to dismantling a Castle is quite the preservation journey.

Anyway life goes on, its clear from this thread and elsewhere on social media that the outcome makes a similar number of people extremely happy as very sad so overall its pretty meh.

 

And what do you think was going to happen to it anyway? Unless the storage bills weren't paid, in which case see 42859.

 

That's in turn why i am so pessimistic, I don't think the 4709 group will get enough support to finish 4709, to date the funds they seem able to generate will not meet the costs, and they haven't even got a rolling chassis yet, the boiler will still need a lot of money, even if its in good condition, that's a big money item, even if you have a boiler, If Didcot can protect the castle, then there is still a chance, I have said it before, restore 7027, and fund raise for a proper boiler for 4709, if 7027, only gets one ticket, use the steaming, and hire fees to put into the building of 4709, that gives you ten years to fund raise against an steady income, if 7027 can be hired out for much of its ticket,

 

I think there’s a lot of people rather annoyed (the phrase I could use contains a naughty word but the second word is ‘off’)

As I’ve mentioned before I think this could make some people (like myself) who are not necessarily GWS members think twice about putting their hands in their pockets when the next appeal for whatever the next project is.

 

With a hybrid A1 boiler, and 8f pony truck amongst other modifications, I'm sure a few will stand around the P2 and say just the same....[/QUOTE]
Possibly, but I doubt it, as it’s not exactly a ‘kit bashed’ locomotive is it?

 

+1

 

And that's the bit I can't get my head round. From preserving an iconic part of Great Western suburban traffic to dismantling an iconic part of its express passenger fleet. For myself, that saddens me. Others have different views and are entitled to hold them. I disagree - as is my right.

I think that's an incredibly poor comparison.

The new P2 is at least an entirely new locomotive. New metal cut for every single component. No previously existing locomotive has donated parts to the P2, other than a few cannon boxes for the roller bearings from spares from Tornado. All of the drawings are new CAD files and have been put through rigorous design procedures to ensure the VAB (vehicle acceptance body) selected by the project is happy. We are not talking about something thrown together, it has been designed and built to incredibly high standards.

The boiler, the 118B type it will be using, was based on the diagram 118 boiler used on Peppercorn and Thompson Pacifics that in turn was based on that used on the original P2, Wolf of Badenoch. So arguably it's a higher pressure boiler of virtually the same design as that used on the P2s, with accepted small changes to suit the new locomotive.

The "8F" pony truck is in fact the Thompson derived pony truck that was based on, but is by no means identical to, the class O6/Stanier 8Fs being built in Doncaster in the 1940s, and is identical to that fitted to the V2s, L1s, K1s and some K3s (all of which had the original swing link Gresley truck, shared by the P2s). So this is a natural progression and had rebuilding not occurred, would have been fitted most likely to the P2s.

The crank axle, a known issue, has been beefed up for mainline use to make sure such issues as that observed with the originals doesn't happen again. Sensible.

The Lentz gear is in the process of being carefully developed to be more resilient. Again, sensible in light of LNER history.

Everything else is almost as was on the original P2 or is being carefully reused from the experience of building Tornado.

Quite frankly, that's how a new build locomotive should be done. That, or the Hall to Saint conversion, which took a locomotive not the subject of any restoration attempts and was carefully transformed into what I feel is a well curated and thought out conversion into an approximation of a Saint.

 

That's probably not a very good comparison either. Maindy Hall was purchased for conversion early in the Barry days, 1974 I believe, well before the bulk of purchases occurred. There's no reason to think that if it hadn't been bought at that time it wouldn't have been bought later on for restoration as a Hall. So what you are saying is that it was OK to do that but not to buy a second loco, for similar reasons, 50 years later, that has remained unrestored throughout? And I repeat, for those having difficulty trying to grasp the situation, no-one has as yet suggested scrapping the left-over items. Where is the criticism of the SVR for the pannier tank they scrapped (3612)? Seems to me that there's a lot of outrage that the ubiquitous "someone" (or should that be "someone else"?) isn't doing "something" about the engine, but no little apparent action, despite the hints. One would have thought that any serious bidder would at least have tried to canvas support.

 

It will be interesting to see what happens when the GWS launch another appeal..... they may be in for a shock .... to be honest already the mainline King appeal fizzled out, the railmotor is now out of ticket and rotting and the much hyped Pendennis castle return to the mainline also went cold.... seems there are lots of promises with little return. All of which til now have not really upset people but..... Thornbury castle has touched a raw nerve....this will come back and bite their arses and I hope it does.....

 

I feel you are misrepresenting my viewpoint. My obvious preference is for new builds to be entirely new, to not take away from whatever heritage we have. Maindy Hall, though sad it is no longer a hall, is still recognisably a part of the G.W.R. story and as an exercise in effectively backdating the locomotive (reversing the Saint Martin conversion which led to the Halls) has its merits, and in my view has been done with careful thinking and attention to preservation concerned.

I have not uttered the words "scrapped" in any of my posts in relation to 7027 or its remains.

Shock horror, though, that on a thread specific to 7027, nobody has mentioned 3612 or the SVR. Forgive me but whataboutery is just infuriating to read and deal with. It's a red herring.

For my own part, I think I have made my views pretty clear.

I would suggest that if you are not aware of what was going on behind the scenes, claiming nothing happened is as damaging to this thread as anyone claiming this was all for show (I think the GWS were sincere in their efforts, despite my misgivings about the whole situation here).

Best to let it go and let them get on with it.

 

With a hybrid A1 boiler, and 8f pony truck amongst other modifications, I'm sure a few will stand around the P2 and say just the same....[/QUOTE]



Could You please explain to Me which 8F and which A1 have ceased to exist in their own right in order that the P2 can be built?