7027 Thornbury Castle

Thank you Tom. The case for Thornbury Castle to be restored to health with Indian Red frames grows stronger by the day….

 

Same with cars. A lot of surviving Mark 1 Escorts and Mark 2 Cortinas which were originally 1300 deluxe versions have transformed into Mexicos and 1600Es

 

Wikipedia lists only two replicas at Hendon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_at_the_Royal_Air_Force_Museum_London
both WW1 aircraft. Until 2014 a replica Vickers Vimy was displayed there.

 

Most of the aircraft in the Graham White hangar are replicas, virtual new builds, or a pick 'n' mix of various airframes.

 

Wikipedia is wrong then …

In addition to the two listed:

• The FB5 - built in 1965 https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/collections/73-A-1066-Vickers-Gunbus.pdf
• The BE2b, built early 1980s - https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/collections/1992-0382-A-BE2B-Reproduction.pdf
• The FE2b - original nacelle, the rest is a replica from the 1970s - https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/collections/84-A-450-F-E-2b.pdf

That’s from a quick squiz. At least a third of that hangar are replicas, possibly more.

Tom

 

Change "47xx" to "P2" and the same question could be asked, but most of us are pleased to see one being built and many of us have contributed money towards it.

Change "A1" to "P2" and the same applies a fortiori, notably valves of a design that wasn't fitted to any of the originals (and didn't even exist until a few years later?) and a shorter boiler with a higher working pressure. But there are reasons for all the differences, and most of us regard those reasons as valid.
There are likewise reasons for using a No. 8 boiler on 4709, but some of us are unconvinced about them. There is also concern about using the particular No. 8 boiler from 7027, but time will tell whether the alternative of restoring 7027 with its boiler becomes reality.

 

Not any more!

 

Nine original, although two are composites made of two or more original aircraft and five replicas.

 

To be fair to the RAF Museum, they have specific collection IDs on the exhibit web pages, and searching “ID RAF museum” brings back a detailed chronology of each exhibit.

Tom

 

When I was a kid, there was about 8 Spitfires, apart from the gate guards at some RAF bases. There are a lot more now, as has been said, some rebuilt from id plates under 20 feet of french soil. Their numbers are not dwindling, and there's enough Merlins about that each one can have one and still have a lot spare. Building two-seat variants means that the aviation equivalents of us lot have some hope of flying in a spit- an experience otherwise reserved for millionaires, RAF fast-jet pilots and Tony Bianchi.
However, if there were only 8 Spitfires left in the world, and someone were proposing taking one to bits forever, so that its Merlin could be taken to build a replica of a Fairey Battle or Boulton-Paul Defiant, there would probably be similar sentiments.

 

I think that this is a very valid point.

If you look at Iron Duke, there is only one very unique original broad gauge loco in preservation, Tiny, and while using Austerity boiler and bits wasnt ideal in some respects, given the 'experience' it could offer and the resources available at the time then I suggest that it was not an unreasonable option.

By comparison the 47xx was a one off small class that represented an evolutionary dead end.

On the other hand if (say) no 57xx had survived, using existing components might be more justifiable

 

The important point with aircraft restoration is that 'Most' of the replacement parts involved a

I would say that it's breaking 3 loco's to provide parts that COULD have been made new for 6 loco's with a great deal of compromise and still a long way off.

 

The 4700s were a successful design (when with the No.7), and calling them an evolutionary dead end is a bit mean, given they lasted 40 years with little modification, fulfilling the same work they had always done; 8x Fast fitted overnight freights, and daytime duties inbetween. Not an untrue statement however, since Churchward retired, and Collett did build further Castles instead of 47s, which would then be the running mates for the fast freights, as Halls were not up to the task.

Using existing parts seems to be justified at least where they share commonality and little prospect of further use. 4115 and 2861 going may not have created as much fuss, but 7027 feels like a stretch too far because it grabs something which seemingly had a bright future on it's own, while also not being true components to the original design. I think I fall more in favour of new builds rather than exact replicas, but that boiler compromise doesn't sit well with me when much of 4709 is new build already.

I guess it is up to opinion on whether small, relatively insignificant classes 'deserve' new builds, and a lot of them would likely ride only on the factor of 'we would like to see one'. I do find @MellishR's comparison to the P2s quite reasonable. An uncommon large loco class designed for specialised duties, it is not essential as a new build, or a major step in locomotive design. But there is enough affection there for one.

 

Duplicated

 

It was an improbably encouraging circumstance that the Austerities had remarkably nearly the same cylinder dimensions bore & stroke and grate area as the Gooch 8ft Singles, both rigid framed but quite different wheels on the crank axle of course. Also the outside bearings for the driving wheels of the Iron Duke replica are implied but not actually present, what seem to be the axle boxes are pieces of wood very carefully made and painted to look like metal.

I thought it a delightful triumph of inginuity at the time and happily remember it on a a length of baulk road by the Albert Memorial with a signwriter painting freehand on the tender.
It was in the right spirit, full size and did not pretend to anyone who took a half serious interest that it was more than ambulant stage scenery- not an exact replica in every detail.
Thinking about it, it was pleasing like the Emmett railway of 1951 in Battersea Park for the Festival of Britain, the "Far Tottering and Oystercreek Branch Railway"
I'm sure an Austerity in good sound nick was selected selected for the transformation but plenty of industrial locomotives were just cut up at the time - to some degree to get the brass and copper before it attracted undesirables as has been happening in South Africa more recently.

The various replicas of the Rocket are a study in themselves but what were in fact the first of the new builds after the end of steam on the national standard gauge for the 150th anniversaries in 1975 and 1980: a Locomotion, a Rocket, a Sans Pariel, and later a Puffing Billy were all souped up to get them to go better - Satow's Rocket certainly had lap on the valves and I would be surprised it if the others didn't, all the ones having single/return flue boilers with the grate in the flue had some tubes across the flue to improve the steaming. Together these effectively negated learning anything useful from rerunning of the Rainhill Trials on television. However there was the Novelty replica, which still could not be got to steam as a second and serious attempt after 1980, though the original evidently steamed quite passably until there was a repeated explosion in the boiler: likely - at least there is no better probability - this was because Erickson had a very early gas producer fire box.

 

I can't help thinking that comparing the highly successful 47s, which must have been intended to run well into the 1970s, (set of new boilers built in the late 50s) with the P2s is not the most valid of comparisons!
It's mildly ironic to consider that if there had just been the desire to patch the 47s up to run a few more years then it would surely have been an option to fit s/H Castle boilers rather than build new Std7s.
As Tom has noted if you go round the aviation museums they are full of replicas, and replicas that wherever possible use what historical parts can be found. The aviation game does seem to have an amazing ability to find engines - who would have guessed forty years ago that so many airworthy Merlin could be found!

 

The three locomotives in question had been around for about 40 to 50 years without any purchasers!

 

No more than any other steam locomotive. They did last until almost the end of steam. The GWS nearly bought one from Kings scrapyard in Norwich but were a week too late. The GWR traffic department wanted more 47xx but Collett decided to build more Castles instead.

 

Well there were nearly 170,000 Merlins made. There are a few companies in the UK that overhaul Merlins (amongst other aircraft engines):

https://retrotrackandair.com/aero-engines/production-department/

Retro Track and Air overhaul all the BBMF's engines. Note that they are producing 30 new cylinders for the Bristol Pegasus (for the two flying examples of the Fairey Swordfish).

http://eyetechengineering.co.uk/

There's also Vintage V12's https://vintagev12s.com/ and Roush Aviation https://www.roushaviation.com/repair-station/ in the US.

This list is not exhaustive!

 

If no attempt had been made to start the restoration of 7027, I might not be so against it being used as a spare's donor, but the fact is, restoration had been ongoing, and making progress until, someone threw their toys out of the pram in a fit of Peick, because they couldn't get their own way, IMHO, if the previous owner sold it to be broken down to spare parts, it's not because he supports the new builds, it's because he want to punish the GCR for daring to say no,
My view is this, the engine is not an no hoper, and is capable of being restored, it i would say, is going to be a easier job than building an 47, even if they use the boiler, On the 47, there is still a lot of work, to be done, its nowhere near a rolling chassis yet, but 7027, could be at that point quite quickly, Put out to hire, a Castle is more gauge friendly, and marketable, bringing in a source of funding,
If the GWS/ 47 Group want to save face, there is one option, announce that 7027, is going to be restored, then once steaming, go out to hire for the majority of its ticket, to build up a fund, then, in the meanwhile, learning from 7027, , finish building 4709, but in the guise of 4700 with the number 1 boiler, because then it's going to be unique, but also authentic, then in the meanwhile, fund raise to build the number 7 boiler, so it the next ten year, the boiler can be swopped,either that, or build another Number 8 boiler to enable either loco to use it,