Which railways will still be with us in 10 years?

Using your criteria I fail to understand why the B & W was included. It is in a Tourist area and near the city of Plymouth and the whole of the St Austell area. So could you please explain. It is just as quick to get to B & W from Plymouth than it is to get to Mid Hants from Southampton.


Ann

 

I suggest the reality is that Columbine produced his list of at risk railways without any real thought and is now struggling to justify it.

 

Greetings,

I have asked that question to myself a few times. I am German and always admire the sheer number of preserved railways in the UK and the quality of restorations and the period atmosphere at many railways.

I very much subscribe to bean-counters' view but would like to add another aspect.

I believe the "older" and more experienced preserved railways will survive, simply because they had the time to build up the skills needed to survive in the long term. I do worry though, that some relative newcomers are much more at risk than the more experienced railways, simply because they have to survive in a much more competitive world with far less on offer to the public and far less facilities initially.

Of the railways I have visited, I think the SVR, NYMR, K&WVR and TR will certainly survive and most likely in their present format. I am not too sure about railways or centres like the Churnet Valley, the Wensleydale Railway, Peak Rail, the Battlefield Line, Midland Railway Butterley or even the ELR or the GCR. They might not disappear but might have to cut down if the number of either visitors or volunteers starts to shrink.

Kind regards

Christoph

 

New to this thread, but having been in preservation since the late 1970's, I have seen an awful lot of changes as have most of us. The 70's/80's and early 90's were all about saving what was in Barry. Here at the Plym Valley in our early days we ended up with GWR 3802,7229, BR/GWR 4160, SR 34007 Wadebridge, & BR Standard 75079, plus ex SAR GMAM Beyer Garratt 4112 and a working 08 shunter. We also had 1 Mk 1 coach, many wagons from devonport dockyard and falmouth docks and no railway to run them on. We didn't even own the site on which they were sat. Early dreams of running up the old GWR Launceston branch from Marsh Mills towards Yelverton quickly evaporated. We had and still do, quite a core of membership made up from many current and ex Devonport dockyard workers along with a few from Laira. But people wanted instant progress and instant results, fed by impossible dreams. Slowly but surely the ex Barry locos departed, 2 to Bodmin(34007 & 3802) one to the WSR (4160) Later the Garratt went back to its birthplace in Glasgow, 7229 was sold privately to Ian Riley (where is she now?) and two years ago 75079 was sold to the mid hants. So the locos that most people come to see and were a constant drain on funds. You can only spend that pound once, so which loco are you going to give it to,? never mind the railway. So with all the major drain on funds gone, the railway recut its cloth, purchased the trackbed from Marsh Mills to Plym Bridge, set about rebuilding it to a high standard and provided a cheap value for money ride with lots of informative happy smiling uniformed faces ready to tell them anything they wanted to know. We get many repeat passengers eager to see how further we have advanced since last time. We offer good clean toilets, a small well stocked buffet with happy smiling staff along with similar staff in the retail shop. The site has many information boards to explain what they are looking at and what our aims are. The really keen can get a guided tour of off limit areas and we now have long term and sustainable plans. We don't have rich benefactors, and are run on a democratic basis. The recent agm saw its biggest attendance for many years as we are about 18 months away from finally running into Plym Bridge. Hardly worth a mention at 1.5 miles, but its on our track bed and we do not own a penny. Ok its taken a long time, but numbers are rising in all departments including costs, but they are managed. Being within a city boundary helps, but being an ex Plymouthian, I now have to travel 33 miles to get there, passing another well established railway which celebrates 40 years this year.
Every railway has its flaws and strengths, each one if different to the next. Yes that same pound ever more elusive is getting spread thinner. Tornado has helped us all. It is up to us to make the most of the recent upsurge in interest. The one thing that can make or break a railway is its volunteers and staff. Presentation and manners go a long way. In that respect some of the big outfits are diabolical. If you experience that, then you don't return do you??
Some railways stive to recreate a particular period to them I congratulate you. For us its always likely to be an industrial pulling a dmu or a couple of coaches, Mk 2's at that. Hopefully a small fleet is a well maintained one, so what if its not painted in authentic colours. As long as its clean and presentable inside and out. Joe public and his wife and kids - 95% of our customers are happy, and they will then spend some more money if we look after them. The entusiast!, Hmmm a different kettle of fish, much more finicky. Once he has that elusive kop/ had a ride behind that elusive loco, you can bet your bottom dollar he won't be back, unless you spend a fortune hiring in other locos and stock. Is that money better spent elsewhere?,maybe on one of your own locos needing overhaul. I end by saluting those who have had their share of knocks, but have bounced back, stronger and wiser =D>

 

I would suggest that maybe a couple of big name heritage lines may go to the wall in time, its a law of statistics… things fail, but I would see things more likely that lines/organizations/groups merge and become stronger by volume if you will.

My interest is in the former Southern Railway area so I will use that at as example.

Lets say the Mid-Hants and the Swanage amalgamate/merge and the Bluebell and Isle of Wight do the same, both lines share a common value/era/style (no offence ment here people!) the fluidity of the pool of locomotive, rolling stock, engineering staff, volunteers, marketing etc would lower costs and operating expenses.

Both lines would benifit from the combination... lets face it 34028, 80104, 30053 would look fine on the MHR and 75079, 35005 and 30499 would be a fantastic sight at Corfe Castle.

I see this more likely than complete closure of either lines

 

It's simply a question of the size of the urban area. Plymouth and St Austal are nice enough areas but they're not as big as say the Portsmouth/Southampton region, therefore by my criteria the B&W has a problem, because it can't expect to have the same number of volunteers as the Swanage, say.

I feel that I ought to say that I like the B&W, but when I was last there in 2005 for your autumn gala I was surprised at just how few visitors turned up. There were very few indeed. The volunteers were friendly, there was a welcoming atmosphere, the two Ladies who made the bacon and egg baps were an extremely good 'face' for the railway, but few people bothered to turn up in half term even those who lived a lot closer than north-west London!

Sorry to have annoyed you,

Regards

 

In 'pipe dream' moments I've often wondered about Heritage railways being amalgamated and even 'nationalised'. There's a lot to be said for it. You could have a couple of centralised workshops where the practical engineers could work on the locos and stock, maximising use of skills and opportunity. Loco and rolling stock shortages would be a thing of the past as surplus allocations would be transferred to combat such happenings. There would be paid staff and volunteers, as now but the likes of footplate crews, guards, PW men and S & T engineers could go where they are needed within sensible distance and people could holiday on other lines if they wished. With locos moving around as required there would often be fresh interest. We could even 'nationalise' Moveright International to provide the transport and Ian Riley's workshops! Bulk buying of things such as coal and tubes would be possible. I don't know how privately owned locos and stock would fit in but it doesn't matter for my pipe dream where everything is perfect and the problems it would create are conveniently forgotten about. Back to reality.........

 

Fine and I hear what you say but you are forgetting one thing, and that the Bluebell is vacuum braked the IOW is westinghouse air braked.

A small problem of compatible stock.

Regards
Chris

 

True, but the Bluebell have LBSCR E4 and Terriers, both classes used on the island, some stock that could be modified (Birdcage's etc) but my real point was that if some organizations combined they would become stronger.

 

Thanks, your point is taken.

Regards
Chris

 

i can see the sence in bringing all mechanical overhauls under one roof for the bluebelle, swanage, mid hants and IOW railways , being as it would allow for faster overhauls and a saving of vast ammounts of money, but where, it would have to be central to the south of england, rail connected and with good road connection , once overhauled an engine could be sent to any mainline railway and smaller engines duel fitted ie small tank engines that could be sent to any of the railways, of course, it would never happen, mostly because owners of engines are connected to a railway, and may not like the idea of "their" engine being worked on by someone who s work they either dont know, or might even have issue with it would require the cme's of the railways all working together to set standards of working that would be probally a non starter

 

I think you would also get a lot of infighting over who has which loco and when.

 

I dont think the IoWSR are ever going to amalgamate with another line - quite aside from practicalities, the line is in a very healthy financially and engineering wise and there is nothing on the horizon likely to threaten that. There's no need or point to exchanging stock, not that there is much suitable to run on the island, and the line has easily enough loco's to always have 3 or 4 in operation, even if the line is extended to Ryde in the next decade. With 19 paid staff the line is also not so heavily reliant on volunteers as some others.

In my opinion, the line's that survive and thrive in 10, but especially 20 years time will be those with 100/150,000+ passengers a year because not only will they be able to soak up large increases in insurance fees and the like, they will be too valuable to local economies to be allowed to fail without serious help from local and government bodies. They are also likely to have a number of members with pockets deep enough to bail them out of any major, unforseen crises; a luxury i expect many smaller lines are unlikely to have.

Chris

 

I don't think that this is necessarily the case. Remember those lines with 150,000 passenegers p/year will in all probability employ more staff (bigger overheads)

Proably the best example of a nearly 100% volunteer railway is the GWSR, for the operation they run, and the number of passengers they get, they are reaping the benefits.

If (and I know it's a big if) your volunteer recruitment is up to scratch in 20 years time, railways with say 60000 passengers would be fairly well placed too. If it's not, you are into the scenario of employing staff, and then we are in the situation you describe i.e must have a certain number of passengers.

When all is said and done, I work on the basis that if you have the volunteers, the rest will follow. Yes this can apply to multi millon pound turnover railways too.

 

Ten years is quite a span. Assuming that boilers need a ten year ticket would mean all currently running locos will need a new ticket in the period under discussion. A very big expense and there is no doubt it will get more expensive in the future.

Look back at the change of regulations and scope of the H&SE over the last ten years. Maybe volunteers will not be the order of the day in the future; maybe employed, insurance covered and trained staff will be required by law.

Private car driving patters are changing it seems. In the current economic climate people are not traveling far and the hoped for UK holiday bookings are not forthcoming according to the latest reports.

So whatever criteria are used today they may well not be the criteria for survival in two or three years time.

 

Talking about the MHR and Swanage, I cant see lines merging based on the fact it'd make no sense as for a start the MHR and Swanage are 70 miles apart and the staff/volunteers would stay on there railway making no difference, you're still going to have to market separately as they're 70 miles apart, you're not going to transport rolling stock and locos every 5 minutes because of the impracticability for a start and then the costs involved. Plus as mentioned earlier in this thread the MHR is in a good place and as for the Swanage its got its own attraction in the form of it been a holiday resort.
I can see the relationship between the two staying the same as it is, that been on good terms with the reciprical fare arrangement and whatever goes on behind the scenes...

 

I'd look at things from another direction. The old minor railways often managed to hang on until major renenwals were required, most often of the track, and then they closed because they could not afford to do the work. The Wantage Tramway and the Selsey tramway are examples, I think also the County Donegal. You can keep things going with spot resleepering for a while, but not for ever.

Have a look at the accounts; what percentage of turnover is spent on maintenance? On some railways it can be as high as 40%, notably on the Glos-Warks, which I think has caried out a major bridge replacement within the last few years. 25% seems quite common, but some railways spend less than 10%. If the expenditure on maintenance is low and there are no financial reserves, what happens in a crisis. In practice, for example, how long does your railway expect wooden sleepers and crossing timbers to last?

Tim

 

Yep I cannot see the Bluebell and the IOW merging?! But i think what you are saying is about swapping and sharing different class's of locos to keep the railway/s intersting and alive?
And the MHR and Swanage couldn't merge as there is so much in the way anyway!!! And there would always have to be a stop off point for a loco to carry on the rest of the journey if that was to happen anyway!! Let alone the crews!!