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West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

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    Well repeatedly banging on about the problem on here does not seem to have resolved the situation either, does it?

    Peter
     
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  2. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    In the past it's had some ill-judged press released rescinded...
     
  3. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    Nor has telling people to stop criticising achieved anything by way of a positive outcome.
     
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  4. The Dainton Banker

    The Dainton Banker Well-Known Member

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    Do you have some suggestions as to how the problem may be solved ? I'm sure we'd be glad to hear them. :)
     
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  5. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

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    Sorry, I've got no idea about solutions as I do not begin to understand the problem. Therefore I do not take anybody's side in this. All I see, as a casual observer, is the absolute futility of the squabbles played out on this forum. Hopefully more constructive progress is being made elsewhere.

    Peter
     
  6. Bayard

    Bayard Well-Known Member

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    Well, it appears to have done something towards preventing the S&DRT being summarily evicted from Washford. Just because you haven't succeeded entirely doesn't mean you have failed.
     
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  7. Bayard

    Bayard Well-Known Member

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    It takes two sides to make a squabble. When one of those sides is drawing attention to a problem and the other is denying the existence of the same problem, which is 90% of the "futile squabbles" on here, then half the squabble is at least drawing other people's attention to the existence of the problem. Problems that are kept secret have a track record of being solved considerably less often than those that are made public.
     
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  8. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    If you have no solutions, don't understand the problem, and don't take anyone's side, why are you so keen to tell those who are critical of the WSR to shut up?

    You seem very keen to tell other people what they can and can not talk about.
     
  9. Ploughman

    Ploughman Part of the furniture

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    Have you ever heard of an Independant viewpoint?
     
  10. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    I have, and I respect the experience and knowledge of @torgormaig. He is right to ask to calm down, though I disagree with his view that everything should be dealt with internally and privately, for the reasons that @Bayard has given.
     
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  11. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

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    And there in a nutshell Mr Monkey you have it - "if you are not with us you are against us". I've not told anyone to shut up. I've just pointed out that there is a degree of unproductive tedium to the echo chamber that is the WSR critics forum here. I just feel that you will not achieve the constructive changes that appear to be required by repeated rants on Nat Press. Just a personal opinion, but I'm sure that will not stop your crusuade on here.

    Peter
     
  12. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

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    Oh Dear - I really do not want to get involved in this, but here goes.

    The way I see it, there is no secret about the problems on the WSR and I have not seen any denial of the existance of these problems. The fact that "one side" is wisely reluctant to engage in discussion on here does not mean that there is no acknowledgement that these problems exist. It just means that the discussion becomes very one sided. That said I do not believe that an internet forum is the best place to conduct the difficult and at times delicate negotiations required to sort out the situation. I am sure the parties involved are working hard behind the scenes to reach a solution, but it seems that some believe that nothing is happening if it is not happening on Nat Pres.

    Just a personal opinion

    Peter
     
  13. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    You do realise how hypocritical your post is?

    The fact that you are only directing this at critics of the WSR supports my point. I didn't see you jumping in when pro-PLC supporters made their 'rants' or go on their 'crusades' (you know stuff like wanting the ID cards removed from people etc etc etc). Why so silent then?

    You pontificate about how things are, how things should be and what people should be saying and doing on an internet forum, but when other people have opinions you disagree with and different approaches then they should not make them because you've decided that it is tedious, one sided and not productive.

    It is a discussion forum no? People have opinions and give them. Whether you think they are productive or not is irrelevant.

    BTW have you been onto the WSR facebook page and commented on how much of an echo chamber their threads are? It is hardly that supporters of the PLC are silenced and have no spaces to voice their views.

    Yes, and they don't exist.
     
  14. Bayard

    Bayard Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps you would like to read my comment again. If one side was refraining from engaging in discussion, it wouldn't be a squabble, would it? that being the, I would have thought obvious, point I was trying to make. What you appear to be complaining about is people having the temerity to air what they see as problems in a discussion forum. Do you think that, Ceausescu-like, only posts that say how rosy everything is in the garden are allowed? Even then, what positive result would such posts have? There are posters on here who do give the other side of the picture and, when they do, they are usually, on the whole listened to. There are others who are aggressive, on both sides: they are the unfortunate result of having freedom of speech. However, there are still others who appear on this forum simply to deny that the problems posters are talking about exist and make unsubstantiated assertions to that end. These usually attract many replies, mostly polite, pointing out the flaws in their arguments, the inaccuracy of their facts and the unlikelihood of their forecasts. Not many people like to be proved wrong and so these posters, wisely as you say, have largely withdrawn from the discussion. It is very convenient for the supporters of the current regime on the WSR (and yes, regime is the right word, given the attempts we have seen over the last years to shut down dissent, silence critics and issue propaganda) to say that no-one appears to speak for the WSR bosses on here because of the hostile reception they receive (ah, diddums!) when it is just as likely, if not more so, that no-one defends the regime on here because there is nothing accurate and honest they can say to do so.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
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  15. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    And so the chuntering goes on. There really seems little hope.

    Just for fun, having dropped in after leaving this thread alone for quite a while, let's just pick up your "wanting ID cards removed point".

    Presumably whomever wanted it to happen had the authority to do so. In which case, reasonable or not, it could happen. Those who didn't like it could just choose to go away. Multiply that a few times especially if it involves key people then the organisation finds itself without support.

    To be honest the people who don't like what is going on yet remain connected with the set up are the ones I don't understand. Someone I know well was a fireman on another line, didn't like what was happening at the time and left for another railway. He has not returned. He is happy; problem, for him, solved. The railway lives on without him.
     
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  16. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Really? I understand them entirely. Imagine if it was your beloved Clan Line where management was being unnecessarily antagonistic and generally driving support away. Would you just go and support another engine? I suspect not, as to you, Clan Line isn't just "another engine" and nor is the WSR "Just another railway" to some people. It is for me, albeit one I'd rather did carry on, for me, my "not another railway" is the GWSR. If I thought things weren't going well, I'd do all I could to turn the ship around, and I've "only" been there 8 years. Some people have put 40 years of their life into their particular railway, and if they see it going down the toilet (as they see it) then it's always going to be pretty hard to walk away.
     
  17. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    The problem is demonstrated with the ID cards - a member on here posted on social media quite excitably about removing ID cards from members who didn't toe a very tightly defined party line, ratcheting further a dynamic already in play of people having to be divided into factions. The WSR means enough to people - hell, my affection is because I spent several weeks camping at Watchet while my now wife did geology fieldwork in the area - that a binary choice of that kind is unfair, and risks denying them the chance to influence the railway in a positive direction. Put up or shut up is not a good way to build a sustainable organisation; I am disappointed to see people I regard as wise heads advocating it.

    However, I also take the view that a number of battles were fought in 2020, and they were largely concluded. I don't necessarily like the outcomes of those, and some ought never to have been started, but the WSR and it's family of satellite organisations are where they are. They, collectively, now need to find a way forward to take advantage of the external funding that has been won over the winter, and make the Minehead branch sustainable through 2021 and beyond.

    I remain a member of WSHRT despite what I suspect to be a limited welcome from it's leadership (yes, frankly, I was an entryist), and will be observing gently from afar as it wrestles with the challenges of creating "One Railway" in what will need to be quiet, discreet, private, conversations as trust is built and rebuilt. Those involved, whatever their views, would do well to take heed of the WSRA survey linked to recently which highlights the concerns over individuals from all of plc, WSRA, and WSHRT; I hope that those who inspire such mixed reactions will have the dignity and grace to recognise their marmite effect and let others lead even, perhaps especially, if they feel they have something particular to offer.
     
  18. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    I know people who have done the same. But of course not everyone is the same.

    It is ironic because if people didn't care about the line then they would say 'not my clowns, not my circus' and walk away and the line would go the way of numerous failed projects, or the thread would look like the Teifi Valley Railway thread. The flipside is that a lot of people do for any number of reasons care about the line, don't want to walk away and so there are going to be a lot of rows about securing its future. It is an occupational hazard. Like Brexit, Trump threads, polarised topics lead to a lot of heat.

    How bad would the atmosphere and environment on mainline steam trips have to get before you said 'sod this' and went and did something else with your spare time?

    Two final things - this thread is genteel compared to many internet discussion forums. And whether it is something about volunteering I don't know but they were always arguing and stomping off at the WRVS and Help the Aged. (Only difference is that I don't think the grudges went back 50 years)
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
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  19. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    That's all fair comment. All I was trying to say is that when you discover something going wrong, in your view, about something you love - be it a railway, a steam loco or a coach restoration - of course you will try and do something about it and quite rightly so. Often it is a misunderstanding or the proverbial 'storm in a teacup' and after a while it is resolved with a bit of dialogue. If it is more serious then it is bound to take longer and good people - I assume that you are one of many - will persevere.

    However, with the WSR, the underlying problems seem to be longer in time than the railway in miles. I won't begin to try and understand why. All I know is that the WSR is not the last show in town. It certainly isn't the last GWR show in town. And it is definitely not unique. So whilst I admire the stalwarts who are trying to reshape something that is deformed, there comes a time when individuals should logically think beyond Minehead or wherever. If the support disappears then that will trigger something - either demise or a rethink, perhaps.
     
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  20. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    It is difficult to call time on a railway one has supported for 40+ years because one doesn't approve of the way it is progressing but I have done so with the NYMR, which I consider has lost sight of its heritage interest, other than a buzzword for marketing. It is now a tourist line that sells itself on a heritage label but is not committed to improve its offering in that direction. I appreciate, though, that my views are probably not shared by most of the working members who seem to be mostly interested in dressing up and playing trains. So, I've given up, and I don't think I'll be missed. I'll retain an interest because I love the railway and steam traction but I'm no longer a volunteer and see nothing going on that I really want to contribute to.
     

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