Llangollen Railway

Indeed, and there was also an apprentice scheme which trained a number of young people in various aspects of heritage engineering such as boilersmithing.

The obvious question to me is 'Why now?' What has changed from the days of the Railmotor, the early days of the Patriot etc.

Was it the loss of certain individuals who were critical, was it a change in legislation, was the business not making any money?

At a time when we are seeing heritage railway engineers setting up their own new businesses such as Leaky Finders and LMS at Loughborough, then surely there must be money to be made and the legislation cannot be over taxing, so that just leaves personnel?

An insight into the reasons for closing the business would be useful for those railways and individuals who still operate in the market.

Keith

 

"Prime minister Boris Johnson said in Parliament today that the Llangollen Railway (LR) has “a glorious future ahead.” It came on the same day the railway announced its Covid-19 appeal had received approximately £75,000 in share purchases and donations, helping to secure its future."

The politician's kiss of death?

Seriously, I have understood, from a source very close to the management, that the engineering contract work kept the railway afloat so closing that down could leave the railway in need of a serious increase in business.

 

I think it fair to say that the Llangollen and WSR problems are not going to be the end of the Covid-19 problems. Most heritage lines have weaknesses within their structure - especially the larger lines which have made the transition from "play thing" to commercial enterprise and the smaller lines which are making that transition at the present time. Sadly the Covid-19 pandemic has highlighted many of the fault lines with the consequent need to review their structures and re-organise to meet the new post-Covid world. Any talk of "returning to normal" is pie-in-the-sky IMHO as the new "normal" will be much different to the old order. All heritage lines need to take note and only those willing to accept both the need for change and the consequent changes will survive the current situation. The new world order will force change on many things and heritage lines will not be exempt; sadly some heritage lines may be forced into closure unless they undertake the changes that the post-Covid world will demand. Like Sidmouth I wish the heritage lines well but they must accept change will be needed; will they change voluntarily or play King Canute and seek to retain the old order ?

 

I think it fair to say that the Llangollen problems are exacerbated by, but not caused by, the Covid-19 problems. It was moving towards a CVA and giving notice to the SRPS in February, before Covid-19 struck.

(No comment on the WSR)

Patrick

 

There's been much talk elsewhere of structures.

What is the structure on the LR please? Does the Trust own the plc? Who owns the assets/freehold/lease (as appropriate)?

Thanks

Patrick

 

People are central to any business, and far more important than structure. In a craft business, where work cannot just be replicated from one job to the next, that goes double.

I also notice reference to fixed price contracts upthread. They are by definition difficult to estimate for and put real risk on the contractor if under estimated; away from preservation I’ve seen huge bills incurred where the estimates were wrong. In the report on the Flying Scotsman overhaul, their use in heritage engineering was questioned; I have similar doubts about the ability of firms in this cottage industry to bear the risks of overrun or to define scope tightly enough to make that risk manageable.


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There is some confusion and misinformation here, if maybe not as bad as with the WSR. One after another, locos that were being worked on at Llangollen have either been removed at the behest of the owners or evicted.

Yet as recently as April, long after the Patriot had left Llangollen, when brennan asked

the reply was

Since then the 9F has left(?) or is about to. But then yesterday

What are those "several jobs" that have they not already given up on?

 

I hesitate to mention it given the WSR dimension, but I've not seen mention of 4160, which of course has it's own complexities around ownership. Is it still at Llangollen?

 

Their web site - quite out of date it seems - shown a great number of locos as being there undergoing various work. Some have left I know Their appeal at £19000 + also seems to lag far behind other lines. If that figure is correct and the loss of lots of revenue from services and special events tend to suggest a bleak future. Maybe asset sales/loans, as per the WSR, may save the line.

Paul: 4160 is, as far as I know at the South Devon.

 

Thank you - I'd not heard it had moved.

 

I’m a great believer in fixed price contracts but the spec has to be good and explicit. I also endeavour to get a price for possible extras that might arise, such as replacing a stay or foundation ring rivet. Experience tells me that once a contract is let, the cost of doing such extra work will snowball.

 

Utter b******s.

Bob.

 

It hasn't - still in our workshop.

Bob.

 

I'm not prepared to reveal my source, but he was very well placed to know. I just hope he was wrong.

 

I

I'm a lot better placed than him , so take it from me that he's wrong.

Bob.

 

Sorry for any confusion I thought I had read that work was being done at South Devon. Maybe its just some specific items that are being dealt with at South Devon. Lockdown has cramped the style for many of us, so it not easy to get to see things where they actually are.

 

The 'owners' , having apparently run out of funds, have done a deal with the group at the South Devon Railway. The boiler is almost complete, but the rest is a kit of parts. I don't know whether any pending legal wrangles will affect this.

Bob.