If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    May 29, 2006
    Messages:
    3,967
    Likes Received:
    5,064
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    N.Ireland
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Genuine question - what happens if you cannot contact all shareholders? Is there some mechanism which shows that you tried to contact the shareholders and the shares can then be assumed to be acquired? Can a 100% takeover of an organisation be halted because Mr J.Smith of Tunbridge Wells forgot that he holds a £5 share in the organisation?

    Hopefully you get what I mean!

    Thanks

    Keith
     
    Wenlock likes this.
  2. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2008
    Messages:
    7,498
    Likes Received:
    5,455
    In your opinion. Maybe 20 years ago that was the case but the GWSR has come on leaps and bounds. They are a top division railway now along with the SVR, NYMR and Bluebell.
     
  3. RailWest

    RailWest Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,802
    Likes Received:
    7,438
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    West Country
    Maybe not, but.....

    It all depends what the potential passenger wants. If you just want a modest ride behind a steam train, that won't cost you an arm and a leg for a family of (say) four, and is within a reasonably quick and easy drive, then I would argue that someone who lives to the north of Bristol might well find the G&WSR more attractive than the WSR. Conversely someone who lives 'twixt Bristol and Bath, and maybe have been 'just down the road' to the AVR several times, might prefer to go to the ESR.
     
  4. RichardBrum

    RichardBrum Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2019
    Messages:
    262
    Likes Received:
    335
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Birmingham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer

    The WSRplc shares are 10p shares...
    so even a buy-out at original cost would only be £2.4m


    Also, one organisation that does hold plc shares has them on their books at nil value, so any payment would allow them to show a gain.
     
    Triumph 2500S likes this.
  5. simon

    simon Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2006
    Messages:
    11,567
    Likes Received:
    5,224
    depends on the articles of the company, there may be drag along rights that allow the majority to sell and take a small minority with them and the companies act has provisions that allow the 90% majority in certain instances to force the remainder to sell.

    But I still don't see where the money is coming from for all of this.

    Nominal, written down values and actual sums paid are irrelevant in determining if and at what price people will sell, especially when their shareholdings were not bought for financial gain.
     
  6. Greenway

    Greenway Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2008
    Messages:
    3,906
    Likes Received:
    3,704
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    South Hams
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The G&WSR is not in hock to banks or struggling to raise funds.

    The SVR and the NYMR go from somewhere worthwhile to somewhere worthwhile and - as mentioned above - are near large populations. The WSR whilst having Minehead and a couple of interesting stops nonetheless is not in the same league as those and many other premier lines anymore. There seems to be an identity crisis; is it to be a big chuffer - even a DSR style operation - or as some supporters would want that of an ex GWR branch line? The latter idea seems to have faded when the pannier, 4160 and 4110 all left the line. I know 9466? is around to hire, as are other prairies and 4165 should be operational soon, but the favoured red route suggests other ideas. It would be interesting to see 4110 on hire once its overhaul is completed by that other well known Somerset line. ;)
     
    ghost, acourtrail and Forestpines like this.
  7. huochemi

    huochemi Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    May 6, 2008
    Messages:
    2,751
    Likes Received:
    1,393
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    UK
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Yes, it is what's known in the trade as a "squeeze-out" - see section 979 of the Companies Act 2006. If 90% of the shares subject to an offer accept, you can force the remainder to sell.
     
    ghost likes this.
  8. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    25,484
    Likes Received:
    23,713
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grantham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    But may fit better into a day out than the drive to BL and full day on the train. I don’t agree with Paul Hitch on the virtues of short railways, but he is right in highlighting that the length of a trip is a material factor.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
    Bluenosejohn and RailWest like this.
  9. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2014
    Messages:
    15,326
    Likes Received:
    11,663
    Occupation:
    Nosy aren’t you?
    Location:
    Nowhere
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    But you don't see any of those falling out with each other every other week.
     
  10. Wriggley

    Wriggley New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2019
    Messages:
    88
    Likes Received:
    379
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Essex
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    This thing about the WSR being 'in the wrong place' and therefore fundamentally handicapped, I really do feel is a massive red herring. Similarly the eternal debate about it being too long.

    Ok, so these things might be factors, to some extent.

    But in truth, isn't it all about the offering - the 'product'? If you have a good product, people will come from tens, hundreds, even thousands of miles away.

    Look at the WSR in recent years. It has all become rather dated, rather 'early 2000s'. It was once in the premier league. Now it's heading towards the Vauxhall Conference (is that still a thing? I don't follow football...) Since those heady days at the top of the league, it has been resting on its laurels. In my view, this is all down to poor leadership, poor management, poor governance, a lack of strategic vision, infighting, lack of diversity, ultimately all leading to a dwindling of funds, a dwindling of volunteers and a dwindling of community support. Now exacerbated by the positively destructive tendencies of the current PLC board. Many a once-great business has gone down the pan in a similar way.
     
  11. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2005
    Messages:
    9,634
    Likes Received:
    8,302
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alderan !
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    why not Bishops Lydeard , shed, pits , triangle ,water, coal and road access . Washford is a significant way along the line
     
    Triumph 2500S likes this.
  12. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2005
    Messages:
    9,634
    Likes Received:
    8,302
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alderan !
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
  13. Anne C-B

    Anne C-B Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2016
    Messages:
    225
    Likes Received:
    353
    Location:
    UK
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I control several blocks of shares none of which are in my married name. For sentimental reasons they are worth more to me than any reasonable person would offer and I would be in the 10%.

    On the other hand I will be more than happy to support sensible motions likely to bring long term peace to the railway. Preferably after the 2021 season starts.
     
  14. Paulthehitch

    Paulthehitch Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2020
    Messages:
    1,090
    Likes Received:
    1,093
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Hayling Island
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    It also affects the number of return trips that can be run by a set each day.
     
  15. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,099
    Likes Received:
    57,414
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    The cost of a long line is not just in the infrastructure though - it is the stock needed to run a service.

    Let's say you want hourly departures through the core of the day - that means probably four trains, say four locos and 24 carriages available on the day. That probably then means a loco requirement of about ten nominally available locos, and at least 35 - 40 nominally available carriages, to allow for routine servicing. Which in turn - allowing an 8 year life for locos and say 30 year life for carriages - means overhauling a loco and a carriage roughly every ten months, continuously.

    Does the fare box support that level of provision of loco and carriage overhauls?

    Think the unthinkable: let's suppose to supporters of the line that maintaining the twenty mile length is non-negotiable - but you don't have the passenger revenue to support ten locos and 40 carriages in traffic. Perhaps you run a service that is completely tidal: one (or in peak time, two) departures from BL in the morning, return mid afternoon. Passengers pre-booked on their trip. That is the Jacobite model, and also the model of many rail trips in places like the US, Australia etc. You still have 20 miles of infrastructure to support, but suddenly the loco requirement drops to one in service, two at peaks - maybe three needed, and a loco overhaul every three years or so rather than every ten months. Similarly you need 15 carriages, not 40.

    (With a 400 seat train - 6 TSOs, a brake and a buffet - if you ran that service on 150 days per year, i.e. daily for five months, and a two train equivalent for 75 days, i.e. school holidays, you would run 120,000 seats; add in Santas and a couple of enthusiast galas with hired in motive power and you wouldn't be far off the number of passengers taken in 2019, but run rather more efficiently).

    That's clearly not the railway as it is today. But the railway today is struggling to make ends meet in a long-term sustainable way. So what is important: running a more intense service but on a shorter section the line; or preserving the line but essentially for out and back, pre-booked trips? There have been comments before that the traffic is quite tidal anyway, so why not just force the issue?

    That thought is probably an anathema to many. Others might shoot it down for various reasons, so I suggest it just as an Aunt Sally. The point being, running trains is expensive, but generally running a smaller number of bigger trains is cheaper per seat mile than a large number of small trains. (By "large" and "small" in that sentence I mean loadings: a ten coach train with a 9F in which there are only 100 passengers is small). So a tidal model with far fewer trains operated might be an immediate way to preserve the whole line - which seems very important to many - while stabilising the finances: as things improve and passenger numbers start to recover, you gradually expand outwards from that core, maybe with short half-line trips from either end for those turning up on-spec after the "tidals" have gone but who still want a ride.

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2020
  16. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    25,484
    Likes Received:
    23,713
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grantham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I was thinking from the perspective of the visitor, not the operator. But you are of course right that it does have an effect on what is required to operate a service.

    However, I do not wish to provoke further circular debate on what is an "ideal" length of railway, but to highlight in response to the posts from @1472 that being a long railway is not necessarily a virtue.
     
  17. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    25,484
    Likes Received:
    23,713
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grantham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    That aunt sally presumes - and I haven't a clue what the answer is - that a tidal model would be acceptable to potential customers. Not enthusiasts like me, but Joe Public on a family day out with 2.4 kids. It would be interesting to understand the experience of other railways that have tried to get people to reserve, and also to understand how much coach party traffic there is on the WSR.
     
    Triumph 2500S likes this.
  18. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2018
    Messages:
    3,498
    Likes Received:
    6,845
    Location:
    Here, there, everywhere
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I am sure someone with a WSR memory longer than mine can remember the timetable in the late 1980s. I seem to recall visiting mid week in the summer. The service was such that there was one steam engine in steam and it did one trip Minehead to BL and the rest of the time it did Minehead to somewhere else, ie not the full length of the line. The rest of the service was the Park Royals.

    My memory is very hazy and it was a long time ago, but my abiding memory is that there was only one steam trip a day on the full length of the line.

    I am happy to be corrected as I may well be remembering wrongly.
     
  19. Paulthehitch

    Paulthehitch Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2020
    Messages:
    1,090
    Likes Received:
    1,093
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Hayling Island
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Offering a financial incentive for prior booking online seems to work.

    Large coach parties will present a difficulty everywhere for a while. The collapse of Shearings will be significant in the coach market, although the name has been rescued by another operator.
     
  20. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    25,484
    Likes Received:
    23,713
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grantham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    My point on coach parties was more long term, as a form of base load of demand that other services can layer on top of.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
    Triumph 2500S likes this.

Share This Page