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4003 Lode Star

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by arthur maunsell, Jan 22, 2019.

  1. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Believing everything SR print?
     
  2. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Nat Pres stalwart

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    But will there will be enough heritage railways to run them on, as I can see operational pressures (paths, environmental and safety considerations) on the Big Railway slowly squeezing out mainline running?
     
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  3. arthur maunsell

    arthur maunsell Well-Known Member

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    have to say I agree. Enjoy the status quo whilst you can.
     
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  4. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Thank you. I had forgotten what elbow pipes meant but I am now reminded. So the cylinders on Lode Star are the original type and restoration to working order would require either reinstatement of elbow pipes or provision of inside pipes. Would either of those be either difficult or an unacceptable modification to the loco as preserved?
     
  5. MuzTrem

    MuzTrem Member

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    Or better still, if Didcot followed up on the suggestion they discussed a few years ago of building a working Dean Single. Now that, if you ask me, would be a far more worthwhile project than overhauling 4003 - why have another 4-6-0 in steam (and destroy an irreplaceable historic artifact while you are at it), when you could have something truly different? Better still if they can get it kitted out with air brakes and TPWS...! :p
     
  6. Cartman

    Cartman Well-Known Member Account Suspended

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    Making 4003 do what it was intended to do, ie steam, is not destroying it. Like the Dean single suggestion though.
     
  7. arthur maunsell

    arthur maunsell Well-Known Member

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    some of you really do believe they all look the same don't you?

    Scroll back a few pages and you'll find people quite happy to have a new 4-4-0 County built, which means destroying the 2-8-0T at Didcot.

    At the least the Star should be displayed alongside the Saint for some of the time. They are two iconic classes which basically spawned many of the locos that followed , two of the most important designs in preservation.
     
  8. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    I hope they are working on that, and doing things in the right order viz. assembling a complete set of working drawings before cutting any metal. It's documented that the railmotor project spent several years on research before doing any construction, and that's undoubtedly the best way to approach it.
     
  9. MuzTrem

    MuzTrem Member

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    I was being slightly facetious with my post, hence the tounge-sticking-out smiley. Nevertheless, I must gently respond to both you and Cartman...

    There is a difference between 4003 and the 2-8-0T is that Lode Star is a museum exhibit. When a museum decides to accession an object, they decide that it is of sufficient historical significance that it should be conserved, in theory, for ever. When you make that decision, you have to accept that you can probably no longer use the object for its original purpose; or even if you can do so for a limited time, there will come a point where you have to call a halt. If you have ever visited a historic house, you will probably have seen the little pine cones on the chairs to remind you not to sit on them. Yes, it is sad that those chairs cannot be used for their original purpose any more but if all those tens of thousands of visitors a year decided to try them out, they would quickly get trashed. And yes, museums do periodically have to review their collections and de accession items, otherwise they would end up with more items than they could care for, and have no scope to collect anything new. However, Lode Star is a significant design, unique in preservation and a very rare example of a locomotive still in authentic ex-works condition from a BR workshop, so I would hope that her future in the National Collection is assured.

    The 2-8-0T on the other hand, was never a museum exhibit, is one of several in preservation, and has deteriorated considerably since withdrawal from service. If some wealthy donor had come forward and offered to pay for her restoration to original condition, I would have preferred that course; but that hasn't happened, so I don't object to her being used as a parts donor.
     
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  10. arthur maunsell

    arthur maunsell Well-Known Member

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    my original point was that 4003 isn't in original condition, as a result of which I don't think it being as outshopped at Swindon is that relevant, especially as it doesn't represent the work of a "BR workshop" as it's been partially returned to original condition and is in GWR livery and things like (I understand) the cab profile are still as in later days.

    Yes the 2-8-oT is one of several, one of them is at Steam in pieces, and none of the others is in the GWS collection. I don't see the logic of breaking it as a wealthy donor hasn't come forward, stored as it is would preserve it for the future and then who knows.

    As for the National Collection, how many GWR tank locos are represented and how many freight? One of each I believe. A King a Castle and a Star makes it somewhat unbalanced.
     
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  11. MuzTrem

    MuzTrem Member

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    It is relevant because it provides a physical record of the working methods, materials etc. which were used in steam days. When we work on steam engines today, we very often have to use different methods, materials etc. because we do not have the luxury of large workshops like Swindon; because very often, financial pressures force us to use new, cheaper methods e.g. polystyrene patterns; because the compositions of chemicals like paints has often been changed due to modern safety/environmental regulations; etc. Hence, we have very few steam engines now which are still exactly as they would have been turned out in the steam age. And that matters, because if we don't conserve these rare survivors, we lose physical evidence of how things were actually done in the steam age. To take another non-railway analogy: I recently went round a restored medieval building with an architectural historian. Part of the building had been bombed during WWII, and subsequently rebuilt. The expert could tell, just by looking at the stone, which elements were original and which had been replicated. If we destroy engines like Lode Star, future railway historians will never be able to look at restored engines and tell you which bits are original and which aren't, because they won't have any authentic reference points to refer back to.

    Yes, I take your point about the steam pipes, but the rest of the fabric of the engine is all authentic steam-age material, and that is what matters.. How do we know, for example, when we restore a GWR engine, that we are painting the lining-out to exactly the right thickness, or that our reproduction transfers are exactly the right size? Yes, documentary records can help, but the most reliable source is an original example that you can refer back to. If we "restore" engines like 4003 or 4073, then our last surviving physical reference points will be lost forever. And yes, I know she was restored to GWR condition after nationalisation...nevertheless, she would have been restored by craftsmen who had probably been around long enough to remember the GWR era and remember how things were done. OK, there may be some errors in the restoration e.g. the steam pipes, but those are well-documented; and they don't mean that the conserved engine doesn't yield useful information about other details. Like any historical source, a discerning historian would consider it in combination with a range of other sources e.g. documentation. Even the absence of the steam pipes is, in itself, part of the engine's history now, and it is interesting as tells us something about the philosophy of railway museums at that time.

    Perhaps you may think this is all rather arcane. But the trouble is that you never know what details may be of interest to future historians. If we're really desperate to see a working Star, we have the capability to build a new one. But once you "restore" 4003, that perfect authenticity is destroyed forever, and can never be recreated. That is why I am firmly in favour of leaving her as she is.

    However...I would agree with you that the National Collection, as things stand, is unbalanced. Personally, I would have kept 2818 in the collection and de-accessioned 6000 instead. However, at least 2818 has gone to another museum where she will continue to be cared for.
     
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  12. Cartman

    Cartman Well-Known Member Account Suspended

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    I see your point, but I’m afraid I just don’t get this argument over originality at all. To me, a loco should be a living, breathing thing and not a stuffed ornament. The real railway used to strip and overhaul them constantly so any “originality” went after its first repair. In any case, the materials and methods are very well documented, if you did want to display any physical evidence of steam era work, then conserve parts which have been removed and are no longer serviceable.
     
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  13. LesterBrown

    LesterBrown Member

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    I would much rather see a loco currently deteriorating on a siding in the open air restored than a nicely kept static exhibit pulled apart. If we will be able to see 4079 and 2999 running I am quite content that 4003 be left as a cosseted static exhibit, apart from ticking a line in some enthusiasts' notebooks does every loco NEED to actually steam?
     
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  14. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    In what way is 4003 stuffed? Very emotive language, but really its fake news. A stuffed animal has its entire internals removed.
     
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  15. garth manor

    garth manor Well-Known Member

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    The NRM needs to represent the GWR throughout its existence and that railway should have the highest number of exhibits due to its most important influence.
     
  16. arthur maunsell

    arthur maunsell Well-Known Member

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    I fully agree, and the representation is poor as I said earlier in at least two areas. In fact the dearth of freight types and tanks is across the board. How can the NC not have a 57xx?
     
  17. michaelh

    michaelh Part of the furniture

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    When will 4079 be running?
     
  18. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    When she's ready. Same as every other...
     
  19. Cartman

    Cartman Well-Known Member Account Suspended

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    In my opinion yes, where possible. It is what they were built to do and a working order loco is of far more interest than a dead static one. After all, to quote the great Basil Fawlty when his car wouldn't start "If you won't go, theres no point in having you, is there?!"
     
  20. MuzTrem

    MuzTrem Member

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    The NRM can't afford to have everything they might like to. Railway locomotives are very expensive to keep, even when kept static. You need a big storage space for them, and moving them anywhere or doing any kind of conservation work on them costs a fortune. Even if you loan them out, you need staff who can devote time to administering that loan and keeping tabs on whether the lenders are looking after them to the required standards. And the railway story didn't end in 1968; the NRM will want to collect new exhibits and first- and second-generation "modern traction" passes into history. Clearly, the recent deacessions show they have reached a point where they feel that they can't take on any more without getting rid of a few things. In that context, you would have to make a very convincing case to justify taking on a new steam exhibit now. They already have one 0-6-0 shunting engine, the J52. How do they justify taking on another? What part of the railway story does it tell that 1247 doesn't?

    There are other factors to consider too. Admittedly, 9400 was an odd choice for the National Collection. One might say, "deaccession her and get a 57xx instead?" But like 4003, 9400 is a time capsule, still in authentic ex-Swindon condition. It makes more sense for her to remain in a museum setting now, and for the surviving 57xxs to be kept running, since all of them (I think!) have already steamed in preservation.
     

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