Edward Thompson: Wartime C.M.E. Discussion

+1

 

For someone with seemingly little knowledge of things ECML, it will probably come as a surprise to learn that A4s worked more than just the Elizabethan. As for the rest of your diatribe - whatever.

 

I think, if we take it in turns, we could all cooperate and find reasons to rubbish every CME and every class of steam locomotive that has ever been produced.

 

I think we're in danger of feeding that which shouldn't be fed.

 

That's you opinion and you are entitled to it. Gresley was of the opinion that three cylinders was better. However, unless you build one and put it to the test, it will remain just that, an unsubstantiated opinion.

 

And a 2 cylinder P1 even better.
The Elizabethan train timimg was 60 mph average start to stop.
No need to build one as experiment.
SNCF bougth 1340 from USA and ran 1327 for around twenty years

 

ok .
the V2 Weighed in at 94 tons .
when they were fitted with self cleaning screens one went to the WR for Sam Ells to make it steam. the best he got from it was 1350hp. admittedly when some were fitted with Kychaps they would give 1700hp but that was a long time after the end of the war.

now a Brit weighs in at 93 tons , and will give 2500 max.
a Scot weighs 83 tons and often produced 1700+ in normal use . 46115 has given way more than that.
a 71 ton B1 gave 1350 hp during the 1948 exchanges, marginally better than the Hall and class 5.

timing the Jubilee was not too difficult with an expert crew . it was achieved at least twice using 70 ton C1 Atlantics.

there are records of ex GC 4-6-0 s taking 20 coaches.

" How did the railway keep running with such poor equipment?" -- the short answer is -badly-. the LMS was approached with a view to converting all the Gresleys to conventional valve gear . the cost was too high and it was not done .

I wonder if you have ever heard the "Gresley knock" - probably not , but the Gresleys were described as "old harridans" on their emergence from the war .
I read Sparsatts ' biography where Papyrus (allegedly)took 700 tons over Stoke (1 in 178) where he describes the frames flexing under the cylinder thrusts .
700 tons was a nightly job for a Duchess on the Postal . Shap is a tad steeper -and longer than Stoke .

the A4/A3/V2 s ran like sewing machines following introduction of optical erecting at Doncaster and Kylchapps, but as you know , that was the late '50s .

I don't do platform ends these days . nowt worth seeing and too draughty

 

don't need to build one . it already exists . well 2 , anyway 70000&70013.
6'2" drivers 2 cyl class 7p 6f . same weight , same TE, but 1000hp more

 

All this argument about power - You seem to be forgetting that, apart from during the war, typical loads (and the routes over which they had to take them) were less demanding on the LNER than on the LMS, so they did not need to produce locomotives that had as much grunt.
Yes, they were flawed. I think you will struggle to find a locomotive where you could not find fault with it. I do not believe there is such a thing as a universally perfect locomotive (And before you say Black 5, read some accounts of GC enginemen comparing Black 5s to B1s and Standard 5s, and the LMS locos were definitely rated at the bottom of the pile. But then read GWR enginemen reports of Standard 5s and they're not at all happy with them either)
Ultimately, I'm glad Gresley built the engines he built. I think preservation would be much poorer if the locos he built were basically the same as LMS or GWR designs but with different aesthetics. We can argue to the end of the day over whether Gresley was right to pursue 3 cylinder designs or not, but the fact is he did, so we might as well enjoy the legacy he has left us with. The same with every other designer and their designs which survived the cutter's torch

 

Hear hear, horses for courses springs to mind.

 

I may have misremembered this, but didn't a V2 once take a 26 coach troop train into Kings Cross, with the last coach still in the tunnels as the loco sat at the buffers?
Has this feat ever been equalled?

Dave

 

yep = I agree with that . the best class 5 MT was /is ,Colletts Hall ,with Hawksworths' version the best of all.
Gresleys avowed intent to build nowt but 3 cyl. locos gave us some of the most interesting and aesthetically pleasing locos we have ,but I don't think the LNER got what they really needed

 

all downhill tho' .

 

true - but first cost and maintenance costs do figure in the equation

 

whatever

 

are you saying a Brit could not have done the same job ?

 

All downhill from Peterborough to Kings Cross?

Dave

 

Wasn't it actually departing? The loco was in Gasworks Tunnel; the train was that long

 

If you think that the ECML to London is all downhill then you really need to do your homework
and anyway

Correct. Having trains of that length was not an uncommon occurrence in WW2 and the LNER made special arrangements for the despatch of such trains.
All hauled by "fragile and underpowered" Gresley locos.

 

Really? In the exchange trials they were never shown to be standout performers, I have heard nothing oustanding about them from those on the GC (which they sometimes worked on in the 1950s), and the testimony of a 1940s Didcot Fireman (Harold Gasson) is that actually the original Collett Halls were better and preferred to the tweaked Hawksworth ones.

This proves that there is no such thing as a universal best. Halls worked better for the GW, Black 5s for the LMS, B1s for the LNER. You can extend that to the majority, if not all, of loco classes