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Plans for the 225s?

Discussion in 'Diesel & Electric Traction' started by SilentHunter86, May 8, 2016.

  1. SilentHunter86

    SilentHunter86 Member

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    I know that Virgin are going to retain some of them, but do we know what is likely to happen to the remaining Class 91-hauled sets? They'd be ideal for the MML or as replacements for the Class 90/Mark 3s on the GEML.
     
  2. 22A

    22A Well-Known Member

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    Some years ago when GNER was still operating, there was an article in "Rail" stating that GNER would cascade them to WAGN. That company would then remove the kitchen & dining cars and operate them as six car sets on fast Cambridge - KX services.
    However since GNER and WAGN no longer exist, would Virgin cascade them to Great Northern?
     
  3. m0rris

    m0rris New Member

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    I suspect the 91s will be toast for a start, they are a particularly troublesome class that have never quite settled down. As for the MK4s, I think they will follow the 91s into the same bin. As it stands, the new franchise specifications place a strong emphasis on new rolling stock and bidders are likely to go for new EMUs for Anglia over any second hand loco hauled options unfortunately.
     
  4. John Stewart

    John Stewart Part of the furniture

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    They could perform better if on an easier life to Norwich.
     
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  5. Seraphim

    Seraphim New Member

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    The key problem with Class 91 is that they were built as 140mph locos, and are geared accordingly. Hence, they have relatively poor acceleration. When East Coast hired in a Class 90 10+ years ago, it was found it could more-or-less keep Class 91 timings if it was used on the Leeds stoppers. So, the idea of 91s on either MML or the GE has been rubbished repeatedly by the operators. The MkIV coaches, on the other hand, could be combined with the current GE Class 90s, and would solve the problem of the MkIIIs not being RVAR compliant. There's only one real techy problem to solve, which is the need to re-instate the FDM racks on the 90s (these have the function of interlocking the power doors on the coaches to the power circuit on the loco). Having said all that, it's all about winning the franchise bids, and offering old kit doesn't win bids.
     
  6. 99Z

    99Z Guest

    Maybe take a 91 as a power car to return the APT to service.
     
  7. D1039

    D1039 Guest

    IIRC from Mr Walmsley in Modern Railways some time ago when he was in a ROSCO, a drawback of having a DVT* on the Norwich services is they lose one coach length at Liverpool St. to accomodate it and that reduced the seats available. The ROSCO had suggested converting an emu driving coach to replace the DVT but it wasn't taken up.

    (It dates it but he was suggesting as a solution at the time junking the unreliable 9os on the GE and buying off the shelf Traxx to UK loading gauge)

    Patrick

    *"a bike shed on wheels"
     
  8. Christopher125

    Christopher125 Part of the furniture

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    Apparently the SIG bogies under the mk4s make them relatively expensive to operate, so even they may struggle to find any substantive use away from the ECML.
     
  9. John Stewart

    John Stewart Part of the furniture

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    No-one wanted to admit on the record that they were inferior to the bogies under the Mark 3s. Apparently British track was worse than the Swiss track they were designed for.
     
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  10. SilentHunter86

    SilentHunter86 Member

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    Wasn't the GEML franchise asking for 'new' or 'as new'? I like the Class 90s myself - much more interesting than Dusty Bins or Desiros.
     
  11. Phil-d259

    Phil-d259 Member

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    The class 90 has the same problem as a DVT - its wasted space that could more effectively be used to accommodate more passengers.

    Railways are run for users not enthusiasts and those users have made it quite clear they want new stock better suited to the run - not more hand me downs.

    An updated AC version of the 444 units remains the most cost effective solution for the GEML - providing more seats and better door locations at busy times (for what is effectively a commuter railway) than any cascaded stock, while also allowing for an easy reduction in train lengths at quiet times or portion working (a fast Norwich service splitting from a stopper at Ipswich say).
     
  12. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Isn't an AC version of a 444 essentially a 350, 360 or 380 class anyway?
     
  13. 99Z

    99Z Guest

    They need to compete better on Norwich / Anglia services, whilst Norwich remains the largest town in the country without a motorway, it now has 70mph dual carriage way throughout and has knocked the London -Norwich driving time down to 2 hours, from 3 hours.
     
  14. SilentHunter86

    SilentHunter86 Member

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    No... the door position isn't the same; it's at each end, like the existing high speed DMUs/EMUs and the 442s. The plan is to get journey times to Norwich down to 90 minutes by getting line speeds up to 110mph in places.
     
  15. Phil-d259

    Phil-d259 Member

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    Nope

    The 350 / 360 / 380 are AC versions of the class 450

    The 444 has a 23m long bodyshell with single leaf doors located almost at the ends of the carriage and is best thought of as an updated 442 unit. Such layouts are InterCity in charterer and feature on the Mk3 / Mk4 coach, Voyagers, Pendalinos and now the IEPs

    The 350s, 360s, 380s and 450s are essentially 20m long vehicles with doors in the traditional 1/3rd and 2/3rd positions. Such a feature is traditionally seen as a suburban design so as to facilitate speedy boarding / alighting and follows on from the likes of the 313, 315, 321, 320, 455, Networker and Electrostar

    On SWT the 444 and 450s are however fully compatible and can work in multiple if required.
     
  16. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

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    You think ? the Mk3's look set to outlast most of the loco's and powercars built to haul them, look at the Chiltern hauled sets, they blow most D/EMU interiors out the water, I've lost count of how many times normals have asked me on them "is this first class ?" because they have become so used to rubbish conditions in a DMU standard with no tables, legroom etc.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2016
  17. damianrhysmoore

    damianrhysmoore Well-Known Member

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    Having been up to Norwich at the weekend, the MK3s are currently near completing a refurbishment which makes them a nice to travel in as anything else around. The franchise is due to be re-let in October, with the winner announced in June, so not long to wait before we find out. Personally I don't think I see Mk4s and 91s as an upgrade...apart from doors (actually I don't see EMUs as an upgrade either but understand that a 15-20% increase in capacity and shorter dwell times with modern power doors would be a bonus). Why not a downrated (or not) IEP if you want a modern intercity EMU, isn't that what they're for?
     
  18. m0rris

    m0rris New Member

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    The problem with Mk4s is that I understand that they aren't as reliable as Mk3s and more importantly, I don't see a particular niche for them to fill at the moment. All the upcoming franchises require new stock and the franchises in the market for hauled stock are largely spoken for.
     
  19. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Re-using existing rolling stock, even with refurbishment, must be a lot cheaper than paying for new stock to be built. Therefore a franchise bidder could offer a much better deal to DfT. A single bidder could even offer alternatives: "We'll provide new stock and pay you £X million over the period of the franchise or re-use the stock that's surplus from the ECML and pay you £Y million. Which do you prefer?"
     
  20. 22A

    22A Well-Known Member

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    Remember Sectorisation thirty years ago? Main line classes such as the Peaks were being withdrawn by Inter City and were offered to Regional Railways. RR thought about it, but considered the maintenance costs to be higher than having new stock. As a result the 153, 156 and 158s were introduced.
    As has been posted earlier in this thread, more seats are required so EMU and DMU sets appear preferable to loco and coaches.
     

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