Royal Duchy 2015

Well VT doesn't overload their locos. I think 5043 has taken this load size before. 2012

And the train was sold out I believe.

 

Don't forget that Tangmere has successfully done the route 8 times with 9 coaches, twice with climbs of Hemerdon on wet rails.

 

Any locomotive can have what might be termed a "bad day". Steam locomotives tend to have more of these than newer forms of traction. There again our steam machines do have advantages of their own. Sadly the addressing of the adhesion question is not one of them.

 

Just watched that footage on my PSOV ML 99 Volume 2 DVD. A superb shot of the Black Fives slogging up Hemerdon with an equally impressive soundtrack. 45407 certainly saved the day with an astonishing display of power as she had 12 carriages and the ailing 45110 on the drawbar. The commentary says that 45110 only had around 150 on the gauge. Below is a still from the DVD showing the fives well into the climb:

 

And we have to remember some of these engines are nearly 70 years old!!


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As usual poorly researched news items written for dramatic effect. It was only the northern coasts of Devon and Cornwall - and not all of it by any means. The southern beaches of both counties were not affected.
However I guess the surfing communities had a great day.

Reverting to topic, it does seem that Tangmere has a dislike of the hilly parts of the South West. Why is she just left to the flatter or more undulating parts of Southern England. I believe that is what she was built for?

 

To quote 1020 Shireman "Don't forget that Tangmere has successfully done the route 8 times with 9 coaches, twice with climbs of Hemerdon on wet rails." Bulleids regularly worked over the Devon banks in both SR and BR days to give crews route knowledge in the event of the LSWR route being closed. Also the LSWR maine line to Exeter isn't exactly flat and whilst not as steep as
the GW Exeter - Plymouth line, they would be expected to work heavier trains.

 

I am aware that many of that type and the rebuilds did good reliable work in the South Western counties but this particular loco seems to hit the headlines quite often.

 

Given that it's the only original Light Pacific currently on the main line, it would be difficult for other originals to hit any headlines where main line running is concerned. And 1020 Shireman's observation regarding her good performances over the Devon banks remains valid. It is evident that something went wrong on Sunday but it makes me chuckle how quick our resident "experts" are in coming to a conclusion when none of them were on the footplate at the time, and I doubt many have ever driven a steam loco on the main line, and can't possibly have a clue what was occurring at the time.

 

Hi, just to note that one of the other railway's Black 5 4-6-0's came to grief today in Wales - slipping to a stand with 6 on, but I admit I don't know the detail of the gradients. Just for a while we need to err on the side of caution and ensure that steam is not asked to take on more than it can handle in any scenario - poor coal, wet rails, sticky reverser or regulator, etc. etc. Just because Tangmere successfully handled 9 over the S Devon banks a little while ago is not a guarantee it always can (I know that's stating the obvious) - but for the sake of future steam we have to be defensive with our plans at the moment.

Diesel on the back anyone?

 

No diesels. Steam for show cannot be accepted. Loadings do need to be looked at rationally and I guess we will see fares rise as a result of 'safety margins' to keep steam on such good routes for enthusiats and casual passengers alike. But then again, late next year a big noisy ex-GWR engine should be back, Definitely one that could restart a 9 coach train on Hemerdon.

 

Assuming correct does make you wonder hence my earlier comment about whether perhaps sticking/dragging brakes. However if (as a possible cause at Plymouth) there was oil under the wheels off earlier trains then shoving a standing dead weight backwards on a curve also not easy.

However for me there are now far too many variables being raised to come to even a speculative conclusion of which was the cause so perhaps it best left until something definitive leaks out. Probably what is becoming known as a perfect storm arose where even two or three of these issues could have been overcome, here the lot all occurred on the same trip.

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Hi Shireman, I respect your point of view but I don't agree - given a free choice I would prefer no diesel but if the choice is between promoters taking out the insurance of having a diesel on the back or many fewer tours, then I'll reluctantly have the diesel. There is another point in that on the increasingly congested railway, the consequences of a steam hauled special failing to complete a journey in anything like the scheduled time will become less and less acceptable and the insurance of the diesel may become commercially mandatory. I don't expect you will agree but, if you had to choose, no steam or steam with a diesel on the back, where would you stand?

Mike

 

This is what I don't get about so-called 'enthusiasts'. Taking this to its logical conclusion, let's just not have any steam on the network at all- we are not in a position to pick and choose whether a diesel is put on the back, and if we vote with our feet because we are not willing to show any understanding or compromise, then what's the point? Waving legal mumbo-jumbo over terms and conditions about the product not being as advertised doesn't help in this instance, either, as there's so many third parties involved in propping-up the industry that it renders them worthless. At the end of the day, there will always be a risk, and that you can't please everyone.

Loading is a key issue, and is one that rests in the enthusiast's hands- how much more are we really willing to pay? Financial resources are finite and the moment all railtours cost at least £99 is the moment I'll seriously consider reducing my custom, or at worst, stopping altogether. However, if the addition of a diesel helps keep costs down, then I'm willing to compromise in the knowledge that not every trip will be like this, as it will help facilitate the status quo. Despite this, the last five months I've had without mainline steam have been surprisingly easy to cope with, overall, so despite the odd pang of withdrawal symptoms, I wouldn't feel too bad about stopping if I knew I couldn't afford to do it.

I think we are going to be repeatedly reminded over the next year or so that the five years prior to April's fun and games were the best we'll ever experience in terms of ambition. It might be all down hill from here...

 

No steam as the diesel on the back scenario makes trains ludicrously overweight and they have to assist. Class 47 125 tons - almost four coaches; lightweight Class 67 still 92 tons - almost three coaches. That's not steam haulage it's a farce. I've been mainlining steam for well over 30 years and you couldn't pay me to travel under the circumstances you describe. The debate is for another day and a will no doubt be had. but how about TOCs, owners, promoters and us the steam lovers (monthly covenanting?) to get together and set up a 'Thunderbird Fleet' with an available diesel 75 miles from a steam route say. Wonder what the costs would be per ticket?

 

Well, the simple answer is not to do it yourself, and let those willing to take the compromise get on with it. You take what you want from life, and if you don't like something, no-one's forcing you to do anything apart from observing Daniel Defoe (and subsequent George Washington)'s cynical, but aposite observation that taxes and the onset of death generally happen regardless of personal wishes.

The 'Thunderbird' scenario didn't help with the incident in question, as the nearest WCRC diesel was 127 miles away in Bristol, which probably remains the most convenient place to leave a diesel in the west country. Whilst Long Rock has been used by WCRC in the past, this was probably due to it being on the periphery of FGW's operations during daytime. Laira and Exeter might be completely different propositions, whilst the logistics of sending a diesel LE to St. Blazey would be a costly indulgence, unless it tags along on the back of the first trip of the season and is left there for the duration, which means a risk of the diesel failing too. But then you'd need another one at Bristol...

I agree that the general argument of diesels on the back has been done before, and we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

I get what your saying Martin, but if we are getting into the situation where a crew change is the difference between running OK and sitting down on a mainline, does that not suggest the margins being run to with 34067 are too tight ?, I suspect once Ray Churchill has retired, we will be extremely lucky if we see any driver come close to his level of skill again, that's why I don't particularly blame the fellow on the regulator on Hemerdon, Spam Cans are known to be tempremental and 34067 has a concerning track record of sitting down frequently, if it can't be rostered to loads and routes where all drivers are comfortable with it rather than just the Ray Churchill's, then it really should not be out there IMO as it's too big a performance risk.

 

In BR days, the maximum permitted load for a West Country on Hemerdon was slightly LESS than for a Hall or a Standard Class 5 and a lot less than for a County or Castle. It was based on the load the engine was capable of STARTING on the bank in adverse conditions. Indeed at some point in the late 1950s, the maximum permitted load for a West Country was further reduced to (I think) about 250 tons (ie about 7 modern coaches), presumably as a result of practical experience from the daily working with Southern crews.

 

I'm sorry but I must take exception to the term "so called enthusiast". I and countless others have put enough money, blood, sweat, tears and time into the heritage movement to be able to wear the "enthusiast" badge with pride if we so wish. I would turn the argument around 90º and say what I don't get about "so called enthusiasts" is their acceptance of being shoved around by a diesel and pretend they've been on a steam tour. I've been on some outstanding runs over the years and some have broken records for fastest climbs, fastest climbs for weight of train etc. and there'a a feeling of exhilaration when that happens. Last years I went over Sharnbrook summit with the Scot at an unprecedented speed but only because a few thousand of Mr. Sulzer's horsepower was shoving away in the rear. A feeling of exhilaration? Not at all, a feel of great disappointment but if you and your ilk wish to pretend that such an experience is being "steam hauled," that's up to you but I feel you are deluding yourself.

 

The age of a locomotive has no relevance. A properly maintained locomotive, is as good today as the day it was built. In most cases, steam locomotives are better maintained now than in the 1950s and 60s.