Willesden Duchesses

Not only has it subsequently proved safe and permissible for a Stanier pacific (and various other classes) to work under the wires all the way into and out of Euston, but this is after the originally lower voltage (6.25 kV?) on the southernmost section was changed to the standard 25 kV. So this is one instance where the general modern tendency to prohibit more and more on account of supposed risks has gone the other way.

(But sorry to have no information relevant to the original question.)

 

Many many thanks Tiviot Dale.
46240!! If I ever find my phot of this event I will try to dig this thread out......46240 was a real favourite during those final tragic spring/summer months in 1964 with the WCML being ghastly at the southern end until the amazing electric services started

Maybe the memory not too bad at least for engine nos in the early 60's.......

 

Oops! In respect of 111-coach train, read 11-coaches! Surprised that none of the usual comedians has picked me up on that gaffe!
Even in the wartime years, I sincerely doubt that anything in excess of 25 coaches was ever attempted! (Although I did see a Edinburgh/Glasgow-Birmingham in the very early 1960s loaded up to 18 - including PMVs ... and the inevitable 'Palethorpes Sausages' van!)

 

In 1961 I rode on a Carlisle - Euston express behind 46220 which was loaded to 18 bogies........and she played with them!

 

and here she is on 5.9.1964 after detaching from the train and en route to the shed and clearly showing a 5A shedplate

 

7 days before it was withdrawn.

 

On 28th August, No 46235 ‘City of Birmingham’ worked from Carlisle to Perth heading up 1S03, the 19-20 Euston-Oban/Perth. This train was loaded to 17 or possibly 18 coaches including sleepers, around 600 tons and climbed unassisted over Shap. The train was checked just short of the summit and made a start without a slip and cleared the summit at 18 mph! As a passenger on that train observed, his tape recording was 'something else' - especially with the coal pusher working flat out, sounding like the crack of a whip urging the locomotive on.

Although the official records indicated that 14 of the 15 working survivors of the class were to be withdrawn en-bloc as from w/e 12th September 1964, my own records clearly indicate that the 1G14 working from Carlisle to Crewe on 5th September 1964 was the final turn of all for 46240. (I photographed it myself that day, slightly earlier in its journey!)

Incidentally, if anyone has ever attempted to discover which member of the class was the last one of all to work a revenue-earning train, this can now be revealed.

Under cover of darkness on 13th September 1964, No 46244 ‘King George VI’ travelled from Perth to Carlisle at the head of 1M12, the 21-50 Perth-Euston.

Arriving at Kingmoor shed during the early hours of 14th September, (apart from those special duties for No 46256 on 26th September), this would appear to have been the very last of any of the class to drop its fire.

 

On Tuesday 15th September 1964 I photographed 46237 at Hest Bank on a northbound parcels train.

On the previous day, 14th September, I saw 46256 on Polmadie shed (66A).

 

and a short time later after arriving with 1G14 on Crewe north shed

 

Got round 5A simply by following a nice lady leading a group of lads, she just walked on in

 

City of Leeds had done her last turn

 

Alan, although I am in no way refuting what you state, currently both of your claims appear to be unsupported by any other recorded observations.

My own last 'sighting' suggests 46237’s final working as being on 12/09/64, when it set out on what most people seem to think was its ultimate tour of duty of all, being rostered for 1A33, the 08-40 Carlisle-Euston (which I saw AND photographed), finally returning from Crewe to its home depot that night on what was thought to have been 1S03, the 14-coach 19-20 Euston-Perth. (That was, of course, the date by which BR management had, in any case, decreed the remaining 15 working members of the class to be withdrawn ... and, indeed, several others were taken out of service well before then.)

The last (currently known) northbound daytime parcels working by 46237 occurred on 30/08/64, when it was seen passing through Carnforth at 12:44pm. Could this have been what you actually saw and could you have mistaken the date?

No 46256, meanwhile, did not appear to have ventured off 5A from around 03/09/64 until 16/09/64.

Following the intervention of senior management, as is well documented, No 46256 had been granted a temporary reprieve for just over a further 3 weeks. On 16/09/64, to ensure that it remained in full working order, the loco emerged from Crewe roundhouse for a test-run that involved working 1S53, the 09-25 Crewe-Perth, returning to Carlisle that night with 3M04, the 18-44 Carlisle-Manchester Oldham Road express fish. The very next afternoon it returned south to home base with 4A11, the 16-11 Carlisle-Willesden fully-fitted freight.

The following 9 days were spent inside Crewe North shed being prepared for the swansong of the class – 26th September’s RCTS special to Carlisle and back.

Whether it did manage to slip off-shed a couple of days prior to the 16th and then to get all the way to and back from Glasgow totally un-detected, does appear to be quite incredulous. Furthermore, given that one of my other contributors actually worked in Preston Control Office at that time, had such actually occurred, he would certainly have been very much aware of such movements through his ‘patch’. In the absence of such confirmation, I find the whole matter to be most perplexing and would be grateful if you could provide further elaboration.

My extensive list of all the known 'Lizzie' workings throughout the 1964 summer timetable was based on notes initially provided by literally dozens of observers, but, in particular, with the very considerable input and cooperation of Mr Chris Coates who, for many years now, has been engaged in a massive project to identify, as fully as possible, all of the locomotives that worked actual trains along the West Coast Main Line during the British Railways era. (See www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/WCML.htm )

He confirms that he doesn’t appear to have any sightings on file of either of those locos being seen on the dates that you suggest. Nevertheless, Chris does add that he would like to hear from you regarding any other WCML logs that you might possess. Quite obviously, that request also applies to all other readers of this post. (You may contact Chris direct via the link above).

 

There is a colour photograph in 'Steam Across the Northern Fells' of 46237 working a down parcels at Lambrigg dated 13th September 1964. The photographer, Alan Robey, appears to have taken a number of photos in the Shap area during that time. He mentions that 46237 was working back to Upperby where it was immediately withdrawn from service, a day after the official cut-off date. I realize that we can all get dates wrong during the passage of time, but I thought you may be interested in the find non-the-less. The date (13th) could be right, locos that worked off Upperby on the 12th would have to return as and when they could I suppose.

 

Hi Tiviot Dale, No mistake with the dates. I spent a few days with my parents in Morecambe from Saturday 12th September to Wednesday 16th September 1964.

On Monday 14th September I travelled from Lancaster to Glasgow on a Liverpool-Glasgow relief behind 'Jubilee' No. 45627. The engine was in bad 'nick' and we arrived in Glasgow well behind time. As we passed Polmadie (66A), standing in the shed yard was No. 46256 in imaculate condition. My train back south was the 7pm to Euston and I was hoping that the motive power for this would be 46256. Alas I had to make do with an EE type 4 (class 40).

As we passed Polmadie I looked out for 46256, but there was no sign of her (him!).

I spent the following day (Tuesday 15th September) at Hest Bank and that is when I saw 46237 on the northbound parcels train. I also saw, and photograhed that day, No. 6233 hauled dead by a Black '5' on it's way to Butlins holiday camp at Heads of Ayr in Scotland. This was the only time in 1964 that I went to Hest Bank and 6233's move to Scotland has been well documented.

 

Thanks for that, ‘46223’,

As regards dates, I cannot comment upon No 45627 working a Liverpool-Glasgow on Monday, 14/09/64, as I was at work for most of that day, but I did photograph it two days earlier passing Farington Curve Jct and already nearly ¾ hour late with 1S47, the 09-30 Liverpool Exch – Glasgow Central.

I didn’t see it the following day (Sunday), so, once more, cannot comment on whether it did work home then, but this is thought to have been unlikely. Assuming that it might have returned on an overnight working, I would have been surprised if it made the same trip again back north on the Monday – especially given its allegedly poor condition that you specifically referred to!

I accept that, after the 12/09/64 deadline, No 46256 may very well have been steamed earlier than anyone thought until now and, somehow, got through the ‘net’, to appear at 66A on or around the date that you suggest, but it is only a pity that we don’t know how it got there and how it got back to Crewe.

You say that you saw and photographed No 6233 being hauled by a Black Five en-route to Heads-of-Ayr on Tuesday, 15/09/64. Well, there I really do have to correct you.

Working at the time at Greenbank Sidings, just north of Preston, on Monday, 14/09/64, I managed to find time to nip out at lunchtime, in good time to photograph No 45512 Bunsen heading south on 3K16, 08-15 Carlisle-Crewe parcels and was surprised when No 45026 materialised in the opposite direction (at 13-00hrs precisely), hauling the restored No 6233 Duchess of Sutherland, as 8Z02 Crewe to Ayr. I do recall in particular how odd it looked without its smoke deflectors!

The only question that now remains is whether you actually do have your dates correct. Relief trains to Scotland very rarely ran on Mondays – especially that late in the summer – with most operating generally only at the Friday and Saturday peak periods. Indeed, at this stage there was a FSO 13-12 Liverpool Exch-Preston, that combined with a Manchester portion at Preston, with the Bank Hall loco taking the whole train through to Glasgow, and I did wonder whether this was what you were travelling on … and possibly on the Saturday.

As ‘46203’ does confirm, there is a book containing a picture of No 46237 heading a northbound parcels at Grayrigg on 13/09/64 and this would almost certainly have been 3L14, the 13-16 Crewe-Carlisle parcels (a regular Class 6,7 or 8P duty in 1964). So, if it was the Monday that you actually spent at Hest Bank, then all of the aforementioned would have fallen neatly into place.

 

All of this is going from bad to worse - interesting though! I have two sources that agree with '46223' that 6233 was hauled north by 45026 as 6Z02. One is an individual connected at that time with the RCTS, who photographed the movement at Greenbank Sidings! He gave me a two photos - both of which were dated 15/09/64. The second source is Derek Cross, who penned an article (Ian Allan Trains Annual 1966) about the move of 6233 from Crewe to Ayr. He states that the move from Crewe occurred on Tuesday the 15th and the Black 5 was replaced by another one at Carlisle Yard. Arrival at Ayr was in the early hours of Wednesday the 16th.

 

46237 and 6233 were photographed by me at Hest Bank on Tuesday 15th September 1964.

'46203' has just beaten me to it about Derek Cross's article in 'Trains Annual'!

 

Regarding No 6233, I based my information upon what I wrote in a notebook listing pictures I took 50 years ago, so, again, I concede that I may very well have recorded the wrong date ... although I couldn't really claim this as having been a 'senior moment', so long ago! What really does need confirming now, however, is whether No 46237 worked parcels trains on both of the dates that other forum members have stated it may have done. If so, it would appear that 'City of Bristol' was the last working 'Coronation' of all (46256 aside), where we previously thought that 46244 'King George VI' might well have been, in bringing 1M12, the 21-50 Perth to Euston in Carlisle during the early hours of 14/09/64.

 

The following may be of interest as to the final workings of a number of the surviving Coronation class pacifics around 12th September 1964. The details most probably originate from the Railway Observer and are detailed in a chapter within the 6233 book. The chapter author is Brian Radford, a respected steam railway historian. In addition to quoting a number of sightings pre 12th September, locos 46238, 46245, and 46251, in addition to an un-identified green one, were observed at work in the Tebay area on the 12th. The last of the class to work into Glasgow Central was 46228 (Rutland) on the 11th, and was booked to return to Crewe working a 22.45 hours relief but Royal Scot 46166 worked the train instead. 46228 was observed in steam on Polmadie on Sunday the 13th. 46244 was also in Scotland at this time having worked to Perth. There is no record of how 46228 returned to Crewe. There is also no mention of 46237.

Getting interesting this.