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Bluebell Motive Power

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Orion, Nov 14, 2011.

  1. Paul42

    Paul42 Part of the furniture

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    I was thinking that members are more likely to support appeals other projects which are more benefical to the railway, and unless the railway they receives a major donation or bequest speciffically for it, I cannot see it happening in the next 10 years.
    A lot of preserved railways do have not the spare capacity or infrastructure, the West Somerset if the passings loops - Leigh Bridge and Kentsford are reinstated and with the long platforms at Minehead has the greatest potential.
    I suspect many railways would be unable to accomodate a weekly train in the peak season due to the special events and/ or dining trains they run see http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/events/index.html and http://westsomersetrailway.vticket.co.uk/section.php/54/1/events/f401bd2d1b1d07a81fe2acff45a5de9d.
     
  2. Paul42

    Paul42 Part of the furniture

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    When the increased Thames link service is introduced after the rebuilding of London Bridge and the new stock arrives, East Grinstead will have two trains an hour e which come from Peterborough and/or Cambridge in addtion to the two trains an hour from Victoria. I believe this is Monday to Saturday not sure about Sunday.
     
  3. dan.lank

    dan.lank Member

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    From my occasional days in SP workshop-To be fair, the cranes in the SP workshop can take boilers off (Stowe a couple of weeks ago), and frames off wheelsets (I saw the H class frames lifted, surely others too). Two big locos can fit and be worked on fairly comfortably. More space would surely be a bonus, but not as bad as you say. As I understand it the bigger need would be a dedicated boiler shop.


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  4. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Whichever way you look at it, the Bluebell Railway is at a pivotal point in its life. As a pioneer, it started small and whilst it grew, it generally remained that way with its locomotives and trains. But that has changed over time and the biggest challenge, that I've said before is a nice problem to have, is that it's starting to become a victim of its own success. The East Grinstead connection just illustrates the fact that in an ideal world they need more than one platform there. But this is the south east where land is expensive. If only Sainsburys were to give back the south western end of their unnecessarily large car park then a number of interesting options would suddenly become available at East Grinstead. I wonder?
     
  5. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Just catching up after a weekend away...

    I still think charters are always going to be marginal.

    It takes an hour and ten minutes to get a charter in, counted from the time a token is signed out of Kingscote box (possibly after passage of a down service train) until the token is back in the box, allowing another service to go to EG. Our service frequency is 75 minutes: in other words, it is theoretically possible to run a charter in a spare path, but that depends on having only five minute window to hit an available path at EG mainline (which has a thirty minute service, even on Sundays). In other words, while it might just be possible to have a charter on a service two day, it is difficult to do it reliably. And there is a lot of current focus on running to right time because of the importance of making connections at EG for our regular passengers. So I think long term charters will either run midweek, or - at best - on a weekend service, the arrival would have to be sufficiently early to be before our first service train.

    For that reason, I think a regular Victoria - SP service on Sundays is probably a non-starter. And that is before you consider whether there would actually be a path available on the mainline with a half-hourly service to EG.

    The other issue is that on a regular day, we probably get on average something like 600 passengers, more at weekends (crude calculation based on annual passenger numbers / annual operating days). At Sheffield Park, the Bessemer Arms, toilets etc can already get quite crowded, so adding another 400-odd people into the mix all at once probably pushes our fixed infrastructure to the limit - which is another reason for preferring charters to come on quieter midweek days.

    There's also the issue of platform and siding space. I was on the shunt turn today at Sheffield Park, and could see at first hand the siding and platform utilisation throughout the day. Fair to say that with two service trains and a Golden Arrow running, there were very limited periods throughout the day in which both platforms were free; at times both were blocked requiring shunt-release of a loco to enable a run-round and temporary occupation of one of the two sidings south of the station with the service stock. It's pretty clear to me that had we had an engine and ten or twelve coaches turn up in the middle of that lot, we'd have been tied in knots due to a simple lack of space. Horsted Keynes is a better operational location for a charter to terminate, but isn't so well set up with restaurant and toilets to deal with the passengers.

    So with regard a turntable: we've survived so far without one for a long time, and turning charters will never be a major component of what we do. I'd rather see that capital, if it were available, invested elsewhere on the railway.

    Tom
     
  6. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Not true. At the moment Camelot's frames, 541 (separate boiler, frames and tender) and Stowe's boiler are all inside the workshop - that's about equivalent to at least two big locos. The overhead crane is powerful enough to lift any boiler we have, as shown by the fact that it lifted Archie's boiler a few years back, and the S15's more recently. Archie's recent boiler lift was done with an external crane, but that was simply convenience as it was lifted straight off the loco onto a lorry; it wasn't down to crane capacity.

    More space would be nice (what we really need is a separate boiler shop) but our facilities are better than you make out.

    Edit: Dan said exactly the same, and more succinctly!

    Tom
     
  7. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    I'm sure you are right on both fronts. And whilst EG is tight for space currently and what can be done there is limited because of only one platform, it would be great to see whether some land grab might be possible one day. If the Google Earth snapshot is typical, Sainsburys has more space than it really needs.
     
  8. Paul42

    Paul42 Part of the furniture

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    Most of Sainsbury Carpark is used at weekends , except for a small section at the end.With more homes being built in East Grinstead including off Imberhorne Lane ( with road names such as Kingscote Way, and others with a Bluebell connection) I think it very unlikely they would sell any.

    The railway has no need for a second platform since it would not increase the number of paths.The approximate distance between stations are as follows : -SP - HK 4.5 miles, HK - K 4 miles and K - EG 2 miles. The later is effectively a 4 mile section, since only one train is allowed north of Kingscote at a time. It would only be of use if passing loops are put in midway between the other stations at Freshfield and West Hoathly.
     
  9. 46118

    46118 Part of the furniture

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    Tom: Changing the subject but back to "motive power" for a moment, do you happen to know if the Brighton Atlantic boiler has ever been trial-fitted on the ever more complete frames, or is it a question of simply " we have measured it all accurately and it will fit, cometh the big day" !

    The latest update shows just how much metalwork and pipework is placed between the frames, including to "avoid" the firebox and ashpan, to give it clean uncluttered lines on the outside.

    46118
     
  10. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I'd agree with Paul. Currently, service frequency is limited by the SP - HK section, and the time it takes to get up and down trains through that section, plus associated signalling operations. So being able to cross trains at EG doesn't actually improve the overall frequency we can run.

    Had more space been available (especially width), I suspect that we would still have done the same basic layout, but had a wider platform to improve circulation of passengers (maybe with space for a waiting room, buffet on the platform etc). Putting in two platforms and the ability to cross trains would instantly have complicated the signalling, to the extent that EG would have had to have a fully signalled layout, since a run-round move of one loco through the other platform would have to be controlled so that it didn't conflict with a potential incoming move into that platform.

    The most important thing at EG is to develop what we have: notably, to add a canopy so the station is more sheltered in bad weather.

    Tom
     
  11. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I'm pretty certain it hasn't been trial fitted, since there is no capability to do so in Atlantic House (i.e. no overhead crane). It's certainly a work of art all those pipe runs, complicated by the fact that, on a Brighton Loco, there is air and vacuum to worry about, as well as steam heating, lubrication pipework and the air supply to the reverser.

    PS - the update 46118 refers to is at http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/locos/atlantic/latest.html

    Tom
     
  12. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Also on the motive power front, for those that missed it.

    It looks like we will have a regular station pilot rostered just about every Sunday now, certainly until late Summer. The only exceptions would be days on which there is no lunchtime Golden Arrow, which is rare. That means four locos in steam every Sunday (two service locos, a Golden Arrow, a station pilot). I was on that shunt turn yesterday and it involves a surprising amount of activity to simplify matters for the other crews. It was a bit of a "thank God for Ashford" sort of day yesterday: 178 on the shunt, 263 on the second service train, 592 on the Arrow and 1638 (of clear SE&CR parentage) on the first service train.

    We will also be having a regular pilot on Saturdays, but I am not sure under what conditions, i.e. how it dovetails with the Wealden Rambler.

    So it seems the regular weekend steam shunts are back with a vengeance!

    Tom
     
  13. pmh_74

    pmh_74 Well-Known Member

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    It's a pity you couldn't persuade Network Rail to divert into and re-instate the high-level platforms at East Grinstead, had that been possible you could have had the entire low-level platforms to yourselves and probably some loops/sidings to the north of there to hold incoming/outgoing charters, etc.
     
  14. Paul42

    Paul42 Part of the furniture

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    The line to the upper station site has recently been built on.Only part of the upper station site survives ( most of it was cleared away years ago, to make way for the relief road - Beeching Way) and the reminader is the station carpark which has recently had a additional level added.
     
  15. jnc

    jnc Well-Known Member

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    Just curious: what would you see as better uses for the money (than a turntable)? More covered storage, no doubt (to start the list)?

    Noel
     
  16. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Well, restoring engines for a start! Or, more likely, building ongoing capacity to restore engines, for example more under cover workshop space (to increase throughput) and storage space (to slow down deterioration of out-of-traffic engines).

    Ultimately, trains are pulled by engines, whichever way round they face. Trains aren't pulled by turntables!

    Tom
     
  17. 21B

    21B Part of the furniture

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    The only financial justification for a turntable on a heritage railway I can think of is the SVR who built theirs I was told primarily to turn coaches to even up the weathering on the paint. They're pretty useless unless you have two and they use up a phenomenal amount of space, which can be a problem too. Unless you have tyre wear or paint issues I can't see why you would build one. Use by incoming railtours wont pay back the investment and nor will photo charters or additional visitors to galas to see it operate.
     
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  18. Paul42

    Paul42 Part of the furniture

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    Overhaul of Stowe and Adams Radial Tank.
    Restoration of more Maunsell Coaches so we have a set of 7.

    From the long term plan : -
    Horsted Keynes

    Replacement of the roofing on the platform canopies in a like for like style, and refurbish the canopy support structures and improve the drainage.
    Extend the undercover storage of carriages under "Operation Undercover" phase 4 on the east side of the site.
    Sheffield Park

    Re-construction of the original LB&SCR footbridge to improve the visitor experience and to provide an all-weather crossing that will assist visitor circulation on busy days.

    Re-styling the pedestrian approach to the station to revert to the 1880s period, but fit for future uses, by use of appropriate materials, infrastructure, and paint finishes.

    To replace the signal box at Sheffield Park with a new building of the LB&CSR / Saxby & Farmer appearance, embodying a mechanical lever frame, with a sympathetically styled relay room and to re-signal the station with period appearance equipment, maximising the use of mechanical outdoor equipment where possible.
    Extension of the platforms northward to allow longer trains.

    To provide secure covered accommodation for all locomotives.
     
  19. jnc

    jnc Well-Known Member

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    Err, those two statements are in conflict. You don't need two to turn coaches...

    Noel
     
  20. JMJR1000

    JMJR1000 Member

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    I think you'll find he was referring to the use of two turntables for each end of the line, so that the locomotives could be turned round, to save wear and tear on the locos, though even then some would argue that it wouldn't help that much financial wise...

    Speaking on the subject of East Grinstead station facilities, the one thing that has puzzled me is why the railway's station is somewhat cramped to one side, when there could be extra room if the Bluebell had access to the track adjacent to it's platform? I've seen from google maps that, with a bit of a move about here and there, the Bluebell could easily have a much more comfortably sized station. Whether they would want two platforms is up to them, but there could be room for that too.

    Really, I suppose the big question I'm asking here is, why do network rail need to retain that small stretch of track for themselves? It's only really being used so as to access the Bluebell line anyway, so why not allow the Bluebell to do something with it? Can't we have both a good sizable station and access to the national network, dosen't look impossible to me. Though I'm sure there could be some reason, as someone else must have considered this fact too, surely...
     

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