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The Talyllyn - Suggestions

Discussion in 'Narrow Gauge Railways' started by ellisteph12, Jan 15, 2013.

  1. Anthony Coulls

    Anthony Coulls Well-Known Member

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    I'd not run a train over Forestry Crossing with no lights or sound - a steep slope with a 38-tonner laden with timber going down that road is something I'd not want to tangle with.

    The cost of the Crossing and its maintenance I would argue is minimal, compared to the safety it offers.
     
  2. jamesd

    jamesd Member

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    I travel up to North and Mid Wales very often as my parents live there and its where I grew up. When I'm there and I always try and travel on at least one of the WLLR, WHR, FR or the Llangollen or Severn Valley which are all about 1hr drive from my parents house.

    I haven't been to the TR for years, despite it being within an hour, the reason being that compared to the other railways i mentioned, I just find the journey boring. The scenery is nothing special, the locos don't really have to work much, the journey seems to take forever, Tywyn (the town) is a dump, you have to spend half a hour or so sat at Abergonolwyn and the wait to get food at Wharf station is horrendous. On the plus side, the shop is good, the ng museum is interesting and the llechfan garden railway is good.

    I think the TR has a place in the market, it just needs to change it's view of itself and recognise what that place is.
     
  3. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    Forgive me but if such a vehicle is out of control, the existence of lights will help not one jot. The locos all have whistles and two crew members to scan the road in each direction whilst, nowadays, the trains have continuous brakes so they can stop quickly in an emergency from the speed laid down. T.R. "natives" will be able to comment on the visibility of the approach roads from the footplate better than me.

    If every suggestion, good or bad, to pare down costs is met with a variation on "we have always done it this way" or "don't hold with change" then the T.R. really does have a problem.

    P.H.
     
  4. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    I am afraid I have to agree with just about all of this.

    P.H.
     
  5. michaelh

    michaelh Part of the furniture

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    At the time the Extension was being re-built in the early 1970's the TR Co gave the Forestry Commission and subsequently the Railway Inspectorate a written undertaking to provide this protection at said crossing - so I think this discussion is academic.

    As Anthony has said the cost of maintaining this in itself is fairly low - but it and the Key Token system necessitates the employment of a paid member of staff to be available to effect repairs whenever it and/or the Key Token system go wrong when trains are running.
     
  6. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    Just as was the case with the procedures at Golfa and Cyfronydd level crossings to name but two. These procedures have been amended with full permission. If the requirements of the Forestry Commission cannot be relaxed then so be it but do beware of "we have always done it this way" attitudes. Something has to change!

    P.H.
     
  7. ellisteph12

    ellisteph12 New Member

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    Wow there are some suggestions here that make my eyes water :)

    For three weeks in March, the railway will only operate to Abergynolwyn due to engineering works on the extension. It may be a valid point that at certain times of the year, trains don't need to operate to Nant Gwernol. I look forward to reading the traffic report from these services to see if the figures match the opinions on the extension. I will openly admit that Catering figures and how to operate cafes effectively is not something I can advise on, all I do know is that the way they operate is being looked at and changed for this year. Lets see how it goes.

    A quick point that came out of recent meetings - Attractions across Wales bookings' (People through the door) were down 15% last year. The TR was down 8% on passenger bookings, There are lots of reasons to be positive.
     
  8. michaelh

    michaelh Part of the furniture

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    Ellis - don't want to be negative, but for years and years the TR (and every other tourist attraction I am involved with) has always said "We're down but others are down more, so we're OK". That doesn't address the issue that the TR business model is unsustainable and it needs to increase income and/or cut costs.

    There does not appear any realistic opportunity to seriously increase income, Tywyn being what it is and where it is - but what I find far more disturbing is the reluctance to cut costs because that would upset the cosy arrangements currently in place.
     
  9. ellisteph12

    ellisteph12 New Member

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    I think we've come to the end of 12 months where the issue of cutting costs has been top of the agenda. The Strategy Group invited all ideas in and worked on what could save money. As you suggested, mothballing Nant Gwernol won't cut costs. If the TR cut paid staff, it would put itself in a perilous state. The search for the golden goose of huge costs that can be cut wasn't found. The timetable has been changed to ease staffing at Aber Cafe and long term wear and tear costs, to me this shows a good understanding of how the railway works.

    This isn't making excuses for anyone, I just don't see what is currently at the TR to be cut to save money. We have now moved into more optimistic times (believe it or not) in looking at how to bring more money into the coffers. I'm just not aware of the cosy arrangements you mention, but you have far more TR experience than me on this.

    One thing we do need to preserve is the railway's charm and friendliness, if we lost that, that would be tragic.
     
  10. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    Sorry Ellis, nothing personal but Jesus wept!!

    Paul H.
     
  11. Meiriongwril

    Meiriongwril Member

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    Staff costs are really the only thing that can be cut and make really major savings.
    The TR will have to work to encourage sufficient volunteers to cover some of the paid staff if it really wants to cut back on the losses, IMHO.
    BTW - how many paid staff are there at the moment? - I read there were 13 some years ago.
     
  12. ellisteph12

    ellisteph12 New Member

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    Volunteers are always welcomed in, more volunteers that come and lend a hand, the better any railway will be.
     
  13. Talyllyn07

    Talyllyn07 Member

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    Paul,

    there is noting wrong with Abergynolwyn Cafe, it is needed. the reason for the modified timetable in 2013 which includes one less loco and carriage set in peak is simply because we don't have the customers to warrant the amount of trains we do run. in my mind we could cut more but that's not for this online forum.

    I could indeed find it amazing if stops were made of a similar duration at Tanygrisiau, Golfa or Rhiewfron your right, but then again those places dont have a cafe... indeed Golfa doesnt even have a halt... you are aware of course that the WHR in some timetables have a 20 min stop at Pont Croesor or Beddgelert for operating reasons? with no facilities at Beddgelert at all? (not that i'm complaining about the WHR i'm just trying to add some perspective onto your very one sided argument)

    what competition from Aber? we are the same railway and all the income (whichever station it comes from) goes into the same pot... and unlike the WLLR the TR offers more than just sandwiches and cake...

    in the busiest times (peak) three/four people can run Abergynolwyn from what I have seen in the past. with the 3rd/4th member of staff going up by train on the 11.40 and back on the penultimate train, or earlier if its not busy (thus not even working a full day)

    as for trackwork there are two paid members of staff, who are not just responsible for the track but buildings and anything else they are asked to do. we also have a very good volunteer base of trackgang members and we have three weeks a year when we specifically assemble trackgang member and do some very good work. recent work has included the relaying from the formation of the Cutting, relaying of panels in Dolgoch woods, completion of the Weighbridge and hut at wharf and next weekend the Spring outdoor week will focus on relaying some/most of the extension. not only this but various weeks through the year volunteers will gather to do fettling work such as lining, tamping etc etc.

    im not sure what you mean by 'light controlled crossing' at forestry, as its controlled by treddles...

    however the visibility at the AOCL at Forestry crossing is difficult in the up direction as you cant see anything coming up from the North side till your on the crossing and in the down direction can only be seen by the driver less than 5 yds before the crossing and the fireman about 15/25 yds before the crossing.

    and once again I find myself telling you that, the EKT system and internal telephone lines would cost more time and money to rip out, amend the rule book, get permission to change our way of working to staff and ticket etc etc but you dont seem to get the fact that having the EKT system opens up the possibilities of running engineering trains at the drop of a hat or other beneficial outcomes which staff and ticket working just doesnt have!

    can i ask what you do on the preserved line you volunteer on?

    cheers

    AT

    these thoughts are my own and may not be the thoughts of the TR Co., TRPS, TRHL or other members of the Talyllyn
     
  14. Talyllyn07

    Talyllyn07 Member

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    hi Meiriongwril, i dont know how many the whole railway has but the Engineering/track Depts have 5 full time members and one contractor for overhauls

    this breaks down to two on the track, one engineer, and engineering manager and a S+T employee who also is our registered electrician
     
  15. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    Paul H.

    P.S. Have a quick look at the news section of Welshpool & Llanfair Light Railway : Home Page to see just what specification of track renewal can be possible if revenue overheads are kept in check
     
  16. Neil_Scott

    Neil_Scott Part of the furniture

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    Paul,

    The problem with most of your suggestions is that they're utterly irrelevant and nothing to do with the TR management's mentality or philosophy. Just because we could change things doesn't mean that we have to and just because we won't change things doesn't mean that we're totally wrong. Your suggestions about giving up EKT and changing the level crossing protection at Forestry Crossing are a total nonsense and do not reflect in anyway how the TR is run. The railway has a good idea about what it needs to do to improve its financial affairs and if any of your suggestions were to be implemented they would not provide the major stimulus that is currently needed.
     
  17. ellisteph12

    ellisteph12 New Member

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    It is proving quite a battle to prove this isn't the case, and I'm not sure where this idea has come from?

    The Talyllyn's Treasurer and Accountant made this recent radio interview, I think it will be interesting to all rail enthusiasts My Other Life - The Talyllyn Railway and should go some way to show that the railway has moved forward a lot and the notion it is stuck in its ways will be hopefully disproved.

    Here's hoping we can return to positive suggestions that the Talyllyn can look at to improve revenue outlooks and get more passengers onto the trains. Online booking / donations suggestion was useful and I look forward to having news for you on that suggestion.
     
  18. Talyllyn07

    Talyllyn07 Member

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    see now instead of making me trawl through the website to find what you wanted to draw my attention to I would of posted the straight link... I assume you meant this? Welshpool & Llanfair Light Railway : News investments continue whilst this is all very well and good what is the purpose of drawing our attention to it? and why do you seem intent to continue with your way of one-upmanship? we are all in this for the same reasons after all.

    but please can you tell me (regarding your continual suggestion that we should get rid of our EKT system) what is your operational experiences whilst volunteering? and what real benefit would staff and tickets have to the TR that would warrant us considering getting rid of how we operate?

    just for your information my experience comes from 13 years in the Talyllyn locomotive dept up to current grade of Fireman, 4 years in the VoR locomotive Dept (professionally) in the firing and driving grades. 10 years in the blockman/signalling dept and 11 years track gang experience. all of this is what I base my comments on the TR operating system on which btw does include a section of staff and ticket between Abergynolwyn and Nant Gwernol and its been suggested several times to incude EKT up there to as its much easier operationally! and will also shorten the rule book somewhat...
     
  19. Talyllyn07

    Talyllyn07 Member

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    excellent, nice exposure :)

    cheers
     
  20. talyllyn1

    talyllyn1 Member

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    There do seem one or two on here almost relishing taking a "knock" at the TR for some reason, which is hard to fathom. Some of the contributions would have you believe that those running TR affairs don't know what they are doing - laughable after over 60 years of operation! Some of the suggestions would reduce the railways operating capability without any significant savings at all. Some have been good, and probably should have been done earlier - online ticketing and Paypal membership/donations being two of them.
    I'm sure most passengers do come to the railway via the leaflets rather than the website, but the great unknown is how many more would do so if online ticketing was an option. I've not been in touch with TR affairs for some years now, but I'd be amazed if this wasn't being actioned urgently. The TRPS exists specifically to preserve the unique identity of the railway. In this context suggesting the "we've always done it this way" syndrome is more than a little unfair.
    The whole subject is in danger of being done to death. In the short term TRPS members have responded to the call for funds and a cautious aproach is being taken about the future. Things will only improve if the passenger figures rise - not a new problem to the TR and not entirely solveable by the railway on its own.
    I take no pleasure from saying that the TR is probably "first" yet again. By the end of this operating season there will be many other heritage lines in a much worse position than the TR finds itself in.
     

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