E1 for the IOWSR and 46447 to go on loan to ESR

Tom, you won't thank me for saying this but if someone came along with a bag of gold and said "sell me 488 for I have enough gold left to reboiler her and do what else is necessary for her to run on a given line," then the Bluebell should accept like a shot! It would get her running again and where she would be operating, or how authentic she would be there, is secondary.

The great thing about the present deal is that it means something will be done to bring two machines back in service which would otherwise continue to moulder.

Paul

 

I think Jamessquared wasn't criticising the IOWSR's acquisition of the E1, but was merely highlighting to those who have a bee in their bonnet about an ex-LB&SCR locomotive going to a line over which it never ran that even the Bluebell cannot claim 'purity' of motive power; if it did, it would be in pretty dire straits until the Atlantic comes along! Transposed to the current situation regarding operational locomotives, if the Bluebell only operated locos that were indigenous to the company that originally built the line, its fleet would thin out to the two Terriers (one of which is only able to be used on high days and holidays as it needs mechanical overhaul while the other is out of service pending general overhaul) the E4, and the Std. 4MT 2-6-4Ts (none of which are now in service).

 

Not sure what you are getting at here, Paul. Actually, I think it is great that 110 is going to the IoWSR and I can't wait to see her. My point was that those saying that she should go to a somehow more appropriate line in relation to where she worked pre-preservation, were completely ignoring the fact that almost no preserved line has the luxury of only using "appropriate" motive power. I happened to choose the Bluebell to make the point because I know the motive power, but I could have chosen any heritage line and the point would be the same.

More than that, I don't even get the point that 110 isn't "appropriate" to the IoWSR anyway. Sure, that specific loco didn't work on the Island over the Wooton to Smallbrook section, but others did. If we narrowed "appropriateness" down to not just locos of typical class, but actually specific engines, then we'd be in even more dire straights - we'd lose Fenchurch for a start! And probably a mass-swap round of 45xx tanks, Pannier tanks etc from those lines that operate them.

So really, I don't get the point others (not you) are making, which seems impossibly utopian. Let's see 110 restored, have a good old argument about Stroudley or Marsh boiler, froth a bit about olive green, malachite or black paint, and turn a blind eye when they (with any luck) fit vacuum brakes!

Tom

 

Sorry Tom, I really did not express myself at all well! My point was really that if you had an interesting and potentially useful machine stuck in a shed (or worse, outside) with no prospect of it being attended to in the near future, then any plausible approach to purchase it should be entertained. The "bag of gold" can then be utilised to overhaul something else. 488 comes readily to mind in this category but there are plenty of others, everywhere.

This is why I so welcome the IoWSR and ESR initiative. It clears up odd corners in sidings and releases two further locomotives for use. It also progresses the construction of larger replacement boilers which needs to be pursued with ever greater urgency.

Paul

 

Yeah, though you probably hit a raw nerve with 488. Had you said 27505... (But that is just me speaking, not official policy!)

One structural problem the Bluebell has with its locos (and again this is my opinion) is that most Bluebell Locos don't have dedicated fundraising groups behind them - the honourable exception being the Fenchurch fund who support 672 and 27. Yes, we have the Bluebell Trust which is very useful for providing the logistical and accountancy support for any group that wants to raise funds, but it takes people on the ground to raise money. So because the Maunsell Soc, Camelot Soc, Bulleid Soc etc are very active in raising funds for their own locos, these locos tend to rise up the restoration queue. Whereas for the Bluebell-owned locos, restoration is largely funded by the PLC; in turn that means (naturally) they select the locos that best meet the operational need. We don't have a "Friends of 488" group, or a "75027 restoration fund" with dedicated people rattling tins to make it happen. That leaves a loco like 488 (a bit big to really fit the Terrier / P niche; a bit small to really fit the Birch Grove / Dukedog / C class niche) in a bit of a limbo, especially as the next restoration will be expensive. (Though one small point in its favour is that the current Locomotive Director has expressed a preference for locos with pony trucks as they are less damaging to the track. That's probably good news for those who want to see 488 run again; maybe not so good news for those who would like to see the USA tank run in the near future).

That is certainly an issue that is talked about in mess rooms, so hopefully other people recognise the gap and we might see some action - though at the moment, most big capital raising appeals are being kept fairly low key until a certain project north of Kingscote is completed.

Tom

 

I'd happily pay silly money to see 488 restored and running again, but then I am a sucker for all LSWR engines!

I am very excited about the E1 heading over to the IoWSR! Can't wait to see her in steam and it'll feel like she is in her native home. My Niece and Nephew seem to think of the Isle of Wight as the real like Island of Sodor, as we only ever go over for the railway, and any new LSWR/LBSR etc. locomotives there the better!

 

Excellent! We'll await the cheque in the post. About £250k sound silly enough for you? (*) (We can make the number sillier if you want ...) :smile:

(*) This is a wild number plucked out of the air, not any indication of a process of actively estimating the cost, just before anyone gets any ideas.

Tom (also a sucker for all things LSWR)

 

I'll write you a cheque no problem. It will be post-dated to 2040 though, is that ok?

 

Could 488 get a boost up the overhaul queue once the LSWR carriage rake - started by 1520 - really takes off, it would surely be the most appropriate motive power to haul it (short of hiring the T9 back), as would the 02, assuming Havenstreet allowed it to visit the Bluebell in future. I'm probably speculating too far ahead, as the LBSCR and SECR 4-wheeler sets are taking priority at HK just now.

I admit that the IOWSR will get no. 110 running more quickly than the Bluebell could manage it, I just hope that it can be returned to it's Stroudley colours at some point in the future and visit the Bluebell, especially once the Stroudley coach set is complete or a suitable pre-grouping goods train can be assembled there, though that would need an LBSCR brake van - the Craven one - 94 - is a passenger brake van and is likely to be a static exhibit most of the time.

Chris

 

Found a way to predict the lottery numbers, but only works 28 years in advance, then?

Tom

 

The LSWR rake will be a long way off - I'd bet we see 488 running before there is a second LSWR coach to go with 1520.

As for the O2, it is air brake only, so while it could come to the Bluebell, it couldn't haul a passenger train unassisted. (Think it could probably doublehead with B473 with the two engines linked by air brakes and B473 providing the vacuum for the train, but others of more mechanical mind might be able to confirm or refute that).

<PedantMode>

And in any case, with the O2 having the full panoply of Island modifications (Westinghouse pump, air cylinder on the tank top, McLeod bunker etc) she is hardly a good match for an LSWR rake - even ignoring the small matter of livery...

</PedantMode>

Gary Walker can probably confirm, but my understanding is that IoWSR policy is to paint their locos and rolling stock in Island-appropriate liveries. So for 110, that means SR olive green, malachite or BR black, (even though any of those would be technically wrong for 110 which was sold out of service still in LBSC Umber and never received SR livery). Ah, paint froth...

With regard an LBSC goods brake van: sadly, it seems that none exist (the Craven one is a passenger brake, and in any case probably can't sensibly be restored for service without destroying its historic integrity). There was a Billinton goods brake that survived in industrial use at an NCB coal mine until about 20 or 30 years ago; sadly it was scrapped shortly before arrangements could be made for its preservation. Apparently it was even in good condition :rain:

Tom

 

Yes I can confirm the E1 will be painted in a livery appropriate to the Island. We are one of the few railways that is able to retain most of its originality. We present the railway as much as possible, as it was.


There is the body of an Island LBSCR goods brake van here on the Island, it is at present still in private hands, in use as a store. When it becomes available it would make a valuable addition to our fleet of LBSCR wagons. This totals 12 at present, unforetunatly most require a good bit of TLC.

Our LBSCR coaching stock comprises 4 bogie coaches and 2, 4-wheelers. We are rather well off for LBSCR carriages and wagons, all except one coach and one van were used on the Island system.

 

Never mind the paint and the carriages, lets get down to the important stuff. Once 110 is restored we will have a Brighton engine that I will be able to drive without crouching down or bending my knees to see out of the cab windows!

 

it seems the news is all good. those that would have wanted to see the loco in other than Island livery and/or based somewhere else , should have got their act together quicker. These guys have pulled off a coup, securing the future of both locos. I say "Well Done!"

 

Did you not know that genuine LBSC driving overalls were made with thicker, warmer material on the left hand side and thinner on the right, to cope with the half-in, half-out the cab driving stance? Similarly the offcuts of material were made up into overalls thicker on the right and thinner on the left. These overalls were issued to firemen.

Fact...

Terrier | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Terrier no.32670 'Bodiam' & Terrier no.32678 'Knowle' | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Terrier no.32678 'Knowle' | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Tom

 

Im very pleased to see that the engine i spent much of my apprenticship working on (46447) is going to be restored and made use of, whilst i was at the iowsr i had wished that we were going to perform a full restoration on it rather than a quick tidy up for static display and as such i had been tempted to form my own trust to manage it and find funds to do this. sadly my time at the iowsr came to an end over a year ago and as such i ended up out of touch and unable to do this. im just glad to see that this is a win win situation and that both the engines involved will be restored and run for the enjoyment of enthusiasts and punters alike.

 

While I appreciate that the presence of the E1 on the island will fill a gap in the IOWSRs loco fleet, I must offer my real concern with it going there in much clearer terms. If I have misunderstood the railway's policy/intentions then I apologise!

I am afraid that they will put their interests in it above other lines who may wish to borrow it for a short time, such as the Bluebell. In other words, no return, even for a short time, to LBSCR livery to fill a gap in LBSCR heritage (by carrying the long extinct Stroudley Goods Green Livery or the Marsh Umber), air brakes only, rendering it useless with most heritage carriage stock except their own and thus difficult to run on other lines unless double-headed. If the IOWSR is prepared to allow the E1, and perhaps the 02 as well, to acknowledge their wider roles as the sole remaining examples of their classes (outside the railway heritage of the Isle of Wight) then I have no problem with them.

I am truly delighted that the E1 is going to a have a more visible future than it has had until now, the IOWSR will treat it well and I'm looking forward to seeing photos of it running there. But I would like to ask the railway to please allow it run as LBSCR no. 110 Burgundy on at least a short-term basis in the future, thereby allowing us with a keen interest in the LBSCR to see a livery which no-one has seen in more than a century.

 

I am not aware of any statement that the E1 will be air brakes only, in an earlier post I did say that retaining vacuum brake the was still to be debated. It may well be that the basic vacuum system could be retained so that only a few fittings would need to be refitted.

I am sure that any offer by another railway to repaint the E1 into a livery of there choice for use on their railway, then repaint it back into the owning railways preferred livery would be considered.

Do not forget the E1 is going to require a considerable amount of work to make it into a reliable loco, the IOWSR will be spending a considerable sum to achieve this.

I do not recall that the E1 made any visits to other railways during its previous ticket when it was in olive green.

 

That was all I was hoping for Gary, that the possibility would be considered by the IOWSR. It isn't likely to happen in the near future I would think, but might once the Bluebell's Stroudley rake is complete. Many thanks!

The E1 was not a very high profile engine when the ESR had it, maybe that had something to do with the lack of requests for its hire, I cannot say personally.

 

A fine acquistion by the IOWSR. So what will happen now? will the overhaul of the ivatt tank still continue at havenstreet or will that stop and priorty will then shift to the E1? either way im looking forward to seeing the E1 running again.