Bluebell Motive Power

Yes we are lucky, bravo for that post.

Regards
Chris:

 

I think this is an important point. It would be very easy to get the impression at many preserved railways who try to recreate the 1950 / 60s period that BR = Mark 1 carriages. In fact to a very large extent that wasn't the case: grouping and even pre-grouping carriages vastly outnumbered Mark 1s in the 1950s, so most trains were composed of older rolling stock even in that period. Moreover, as is natural with introduction of modern rolling stock, the Mk 1s was disproportionately concentrated on the more important services; stopping trains and branch trains would have consisted of much older stock well into the 1960s. I have a photo of a Bulleid light pacific emerging from Honiton tunnel on the Salisbury - Exeter mainline, taken in the mid 1950s, hauling a 3 coach set of ex-LSWR non-corridor stock, similar in outline to the preserved vehicles 1520 (Bluebell) and the tri-compo (NRM). If you want an impression of what non-express travel was like after the war, the IoWSR train is probably a better representation than that on many other lines purporting to represent the 1950s. (Lots of modellers seem to get this point wrong too, falling into the trap of modelling what other people model rather than looking at prototype photos).

Roll on that day! (And also Operation Undercover phase 4 at the Bluebell)

Tom

 

Can't see that ever happening.

We have to remember that, financially, enthusiasts provide the icing on the cake; but the cake itself comes from ordinary punters, who overwhelmingly want to see steam. So at the moment, that often means BR livery steam, because amongst the 5% or so of enthusiasts, that is the most popular era to recreate. But in 20 years time, the nostaligia of enthusiasts of my age will be for 1970s diesels and blue/grey carriages (because that is what we grew up with) but commercially railways will still need to provide a largely steam service - because that is what the 95% of non-enthusiasts want.

That's not to say there won't be diesel preservation and some services (especially off-peak or early / late) run by diesels. There will be. But the majority of services will be steam hauled, as they are now. My prediction though, is that we will start to see much greater diversity in liveries again, as those enthusiasts who who are currently influential in wanting BR liveries become scarcer, and are replaced by a generation with more catholic tastes.

Just my $0.02. As with all predictions - if I could really predict the future, I'd be buying euromillions tickets, not commenting on a forum...

Tom

 

Oops, I thought I was replying to only a couple of posts, but the forum then shows me hundreds more on this topic... there's something strange about the way it's working at present.

 

It's a fair point. But, with so many Mk. 1s running in BR livery, I can see why railways feel that they want to use their pre-nationalisation coaches to portray a different era. I suppose the best solution is simply to restore more pre-nationalisation coaches!

I commend the IoWSR for taking a coordinated approach to the liveries of Calbourne and the bogie set. A mixed-livery 1950s train is something we haven't previously seen in preservation on the Island, and as Steve B says, variety is the spice of life! I suppose the only downside to this approach is that, when Calbourne eventually goes back into Southern livery, the BR-liveried coaches will have to be repainted again! Unless, of course, you were to paint Calbourne olive green to match the four-wheelers, then repaint the bogie set into 1960s green to run with the Ivatts...!

 

That's a really good point Tom, BR era carriages are often just represented by Mk1's, luckily on our railway we have those superb Bulleid carriages, but Pre-Grouping/Nationalisation stock was well in abundance during that era aswell. My Dad often thinks back to the memories of watching a Bulleid Pacific flying through Hampden Park with just two Pre-Grouping era carraiges in tow on it's way to Hailsham, the service was nick-named "The Hailsham Flyer" by the local gricers. My Dad has often said that one day he'd love to see two Pre-Grouping carriages in BR livery on the Bluebell hauled by Sir Archie to re-create "The Hailsham Flyer". My Dad has just written a narrative of his memories from 1958-64 around Eastbourne that he is hoping British Railways Illustrated Magazine is going to use some time this year as an article along with some of his black and white photos. I've copied & pasted his memories below for those who may be interested as to why enthusiasts from that era always like to see BR liveries on locos/rolling stock



Final Years of Steam at Eastbourne.

Having grown up in the fifties and sixties within visual distance of Hampden Park level crossing, it was inevitable that I would be drawn to the variety of steam locomotive classes that were an everyday sight until 1965.

Staple diet on the hourly Tunbridge Wells service was Fairburn and Standard 4 tanks, whilst E4 tanks handled the shorter Hailsham run. The Fairburns began to be exchanged for more Standard tanks in late 1959 when I noted a stranger in the form of 80088 from my lounge window on 20th December. 80094 and 80043 soon followed on being noted on 17th and 18th January 1960, whilst my last recorded Fairburn was 42101 on Sunday 14th February that year.

Freight was handled by a variety of classes including K, C2X, Q, Q1 and E4s.The coal wharves were on the east side of the approaches to Eastbourne Station, whilst the general freight sidings were adjacent to platform 1 on the west side. At Hampden Park a goods yard existed next to the up line. Here the main commodity was coal and wagons filled with bricks for the many estates that were under construction in the area. I well remember laying in bed and listening to the regular K class shunting it's wagons after dark and the magical ching, ching, ching of buffer on buffer, a sound all but gone today. All was well with the World.

The Glasgow to Eastbourne car sleeper service was a source of fascination to the growing band of local schoolboy spotters and initially the motive power was provided by four King Arthur N15s with 30767 "Sir Valence" being the first to be recorded followed by 30793 "Sir Ontzlake", 30795 "Sir Dinadan"and 30798 "Sir Hectimere". It was with great regret that the usually clean brunswick green Arthurs were supplanted by two grubby ex- Midland Region Standard 5 4-6-0s 73041/42 in 1958. The latter was to be the loco involved in the fatal Eastbourne train crash on 25th August 1958. Little was I to know that the train I watched racing through Hampden Park that morning was just minutes from disaster!
More interesting motive power was to follow however, and Bulleid Pacifics could often be seen at the head of the train with 34089 "602 Squadron" becoming a regular performer in the new decade. In all, I recorded no less than 35 different light Pacifics, both original and rebuilt over the years.

The year of '59 was to bring a number of interesting and unusual locomotives to Eastbourne amongst which were T9s 30702 and 30711 on 7th October and 31st July respectively. These and the last E1/R 0-6-2T 32697 which arrived at the end of October were en-route to Ashford for scrapping and demanded immediate attention from the spotting fraternity whilst they remained on shed. It was on 17th November 1959 that I observed my first rebuilt light Pacific in the area when 34021 "Dartmoor" pulled out of Hampden Park with the two coach 8.20am Hailsham service returning tender first at 8.55am. Apparently the Pacifics arrived in Eastbourne with the overnight parcels and paper vans from London and the Eastbourne shed foreman having had them turned , made use of them on the Hailsham run. "Dartmoor" was followed by a succession of rebuilds including '25 "Whimple", '37 "Clovelly", '05 "Barnstaple", '50 Royal Observer Corps", '03 "Plymouth", '13 "Okehampton", '16 "Bodmin", '12 "Launceston", '22 "Exmoor", '14 "Budleigh Salterton", and '01 "Exeter".

Other attention grabbing trains were the seasonal inter-regional Birkenhead express, always referred to as the "Birk" and the three summer Saturday specials arriving within twenty minutes of each other and invariably headed by a Schools Class. The "Birk"did not qualify for prestige motive power such as a Schools and employed U, U1, N and K class moguls e.g. U Class 31610 on 12th March 1960.

Visits to the roofless Eastbourne MPD at weekends and often after school involved cycling down to Tutts Barn Lane and then through the large allotment area to the wooden bridge which spanned a dyke to gain access to the hallowed ground. Bikes would be left on the allotment side of the bridge as a quick getaway was sometimes necessary if the shed foreman spotted you and came running, shouting, shaking a fist and occasionally lobbing a lump of coal at you! In 1962 one could expect to see up to three K or Q Class locos, the occasional N or U1 and several Standard 4 tanks on shed plus summer Sundays held Schools 30923 "Bradfield" or 30928 "Stowe"on a regular basis. Other regulars involved rebuilt West Countries 34100 "Appledore" and 34101 "Hartland". An unusual class for Eastbourne arrived in the summer of '62 when H 0-4-4T 31518 redundant from push-pull work in Kent, set up home for a while for use on the Hailsham service. During 1963 further interest was created when a number of surplus Ivatt 2-6-2 tanks and former Eastern Region Standard 4 moguls were re-allocated to the Southern with 41326 and 76034 becoming regulars on Eastbourne shed, the latter being a replacement for the now withdrawn K class moguls.

When Brighton MPD closed in 1964 and the Glasgow Car Sleeper service by then routed to Newhaven, Eastbourne shed was used to service and turn the Willesden Black 5's that provided the motive power. This produced a succession of different locos and the icing on the cake and to our almost disbelief Jubilee 45672 "Anson" appeared on Saturday 20th June. Although minus nameplates and withdrawn on paper, it was a most welcome visitor for the enthusiasts even if it was not so to the operating department! If this was not enough to please us, the arrival of a failed Eastern Region B1 61313 six days later just about topped it off. A photograph of the B1 buffer to buffer with a Black 5 on a Southern shed was possibly unique and I have often wondered if this had ever happened before.

My Brownie 127 camera loaded with a roll of Ilford HP4 often accompanied me on shed visits and though not producing the greatest of images it has provided me with some good memories of a misspent youth. It was an extraordinary case of deja vu when some fifty years later on July 14th 2011 I found myself standing on Hampden Park footbridge with an old spotting chum and my son David, photographing 70000 "Britannia"on the Cathedrals Express. David was regaled with memories that my friend and I shared of standing at this very spot to witness the summer Saturday specials. Names such as "Blundells", "St Lawrence" and "Cheltenham" just slipped off the tongue. Happy days!

 

Thats exactley what we intend to do, but not until we have enough bogie coaches to be able to run a second set.

 

Quite right, Tom. Even on the main line, the older stock lasted until the end of steam. There's a well known picture of 34021 Dartmoor working a boat train near brookwood on the last day of Southern steam, and the stock largely consists of Bulleid vehicles. A few Mk Is did turn up on branch lines in the 1960s, but a 5-car rake of them, complete with buffet car, is hardly a typical representation of a branch line in the latter years of steam, even with a BR-liveried loco on the front. I do admire the IOWSR for its approach to rolling stock (and also wish them well in building covered accomodation for their collection), but a larger line, even a line like the Bluebell, with its marvellous collection of pre-1948 stock, would have struggled to survive without a few Mk 1s. I wonder, bearing in mind the number of new-build steam locos in varying stages of construction, whether we will ever see new-build pre-1948 carriages?? I can't speak for the LMS, LNER or GWR, but as far as the Southern is concerned, I think that the Maunsell carriages represent the absolute pinnacle of style and ambience, (well, excluding the pullmans of course). Mind you, even a Mk 1 is a vast improvement on the ghastly interiors of most recently built rolling stock on the national network. It's called progress!!

 

Now that will be something to look forward to!

 

From the Bluebell website

"H CLASS 263 RETURNS TO SERVICE.

H Class 263 returns to service on the 28th & 29th July 2012.

Service One will operate and 263 will be joined by the other South Eastern and Chatham locomotives C Class 592 and P Classes 323 "Bluebell" and 178.

Coaching stock for the weekend will be formed from our Pre Grouping London Brighton and South Coast, London Chatham and Dover and South Eastern and Chatham Railways, Metropolitan and Southern Railway stock.

On Saturday there will be a dedication service at Horsted Keynes at 10.00am."

 

Oooh then that shall be my first visit to the Bluebell this year sorted then. I did wonder if a sort of a SECR Gala would happen for her re-entry.

 

For those interested, Furness No 20 is currently at the Bluebell for filming purposes. Expected to leave next week.

 

Sounds a bit like when we had Maude down the Bluebell for The Railway Children. A pity she isn't staying longer and able to work service trains along the full line rather than the shuttles she did at the 50th Anniversary Gala in 2010.

Also I can't find the information about 263 that Paul42 posted about on the Bluebell website. Any news on potential guests for the Sussex Branch Line weekend in October other than the DEMU that was being rumoured.

 

Here's a link - H Class 263 returns to service. - Special Events

 

Thanks. Will probably visit on the 28th July.

 

Do we know why 92212 seems to be having 6 weeks off? I don't claim any sort of understanding of how railway sheds operate, but it seems a little eccentric to have a loco on a fairly short term hire and then not use it at all for such a prolonged period?

 

Hi :

92212 is on loan as you are aware from it,s base on the Mid-Hants Railway.

I understand, (and someone please correct me if I am wrong) that there should be 50 steamings a year, or 50 steamings for the loan period though I am not sure which.

Perhaps the Bluebell have used up all the agreed steaming days, or has it got a broken spring or firebox problems?

Pure speculation.

Best regards
Chris:

 

My guess is that it is due a washout. When that happens, another engine replaces it; we then try to keep that new engine running for several weeks as that is more fuel efficient (because the engine stays hot overnight now we are running every day) and it also places less stress on the boiler. So the pattern (especially for the larger engines) is for an engine to run every day for perhaps 4 weeks, and then stop, whereupon it may not run for several more weeks until its turn comes round again.

I believe Chris is also right that the hire condition is for a fixed number of steamings, though no doubt this is calculated on the basis of what useage it was likely to receive.

Tom

 

Thanks Gents for really helpful info. I managed to misss the 9F on the SVR and don't want to repeat the mistake while it's at the Bluebell!

I'm often quite nervous of posting a question here because some replies are so aggressive, but two civilized responses make my day. Thanks!

 

A news story in the August Issue of The Railway Magazine says that 92212 will be returning to the MHR for the September Gala and then will return to the Bluebell for a 12 month hire period.