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Engines Being Scrapped?

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by 69621, Apr 5, 2012.

  1. martin butler

    martin butler Part of the furniture

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    I thought that jibe about the RL was a bit shallow, dont give Moff any new ideas please, but lets get back on subject, as i have said previously, its the wrong gauge and is as much use as a chocolate teapot, it was a mad scheme to start with , but whats best for EOR, after all its on their land and has to go, they dont have any where spare to put it, in fairness to Simon, he has done his darn most to find a buyer, its not the same as just quietly cutting it up,

    And Maunsell Man, before you start , im not anything to do with the RL anymore , i've not been a member since october, i prefer to put my efforts into seeing the Kesr reach Robertsbridge
     
  2. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Me personally? I've sent a few emails today inquiring about inquiring! I've a few ideas in mind but would like to know the full situation with the possible buyer before I commit myself to anything, or suggesting anything.

    I think the potential of an unrestored steam locomotive isn't as black and white as "restoring to operational standard" or "put on static display". There are steam locomotives and traction engines plinthed or on display up and down the country, serving means other than as museum pieces. It's just a question of how far do you go with it.

    Certainly preservationists in this country have produced some unique solutions to problems when they crop up. If you don't ask or don't try, then you'll never know what might have been.
     
  3. Maunsell man

    Maunsell man Well-Known Member

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    SAC Martin well there you go. Well done. If someone has the balls to actually do something about it rather than moan about the 'they' department not acting immediately then more power to their elbow.

    Ahh the RL.... Moff.... don't know him personally but know many many people from KESR and Sellindge who do and have heard many entertaining tales. All fits now... There is one of the Finnish fleet at Swan Farm, Sellindge as well hiding in the undergrowth. Is it on its way to Folkestone as we speak?

    Well done and much support to the Robertsbridge project. We go to the KESR regularly and its a jewel.
     
  4. guard_jamie

    guard_jamie Part of the furniture

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    Fair point.

    Please note that in my earlier post on this topic you will see that I never demanded saving at all costs - I said that whilst it would be a shame for this or any other loco to be scrapped, pragmatism must win out.

    Any locomotive needs to earn its keep in order to survive. Earning its keep does not mean operating, of course, nor does it mean literally financially paying its way - it means doing what the owner/s wants it to do. That can mean sitting in a garden, steaming on a heritage railway or the mainline, or sitting in a museum. As long as the owner is happy with what the loco is doing and doesn't want rid of it, then the loco is earning its keep.

    So long as owners are happy to possess and store their loco - doing whatever with it - and if they want rid there are people willing to buy - it can earn its keep for its owners. When those people dry up - end of the road? At the end of the day, if the scrapmen are the only willing buyers...?

    Of course, in some instances, owners are prepared to wait almost indefinitely for a willing buyer to come along. In other instances, due to the historical value of the artefact, then scrapping could never be condoned and a viable alternative must be found. But I don't think that this case matches either of those 'alternative' instances.
     
  5. MuzTrem

    MuzTrem Member

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    That may be the case for the loco, but what about its accompanying Finnish coach that also under threat? I daresay that would easier to regauge than the loco, and I'm guessing it would conform to the continental loading gauge, so might be useful to the NVR or a continental scheme? Alternatively, the body could be grounded and turned into a holiday home or similar. Perhaps this would be a more useful target for the energies of those who want to avoid scrapping at almost any cost.
     
  6. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    Really? where?
    Sorry my comment was not aimed at you in particular :)
     
  7. guard_jamie

    guard_jamie Part of the furniture

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    No problem!

    In answer to your question for S.A.C. Martin, there are a few - a very few- about. I vaguely remember a pub somewhere in North Oxfordshire with an old Diesel plinthed outside. I'm sure there's a little 0-4-0ST spuriously marked up 'NER' in sight of the ECML. Of course, there used to be a number more - but people wanting to return them to steam bought them up! All the Butlins ones for a start, plus 9629 was outside a Cardiff hotel and 'Hayling Billy' is a fairly well known example. It is a real option - if anyone comes along wanting a colossal gate guardian, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

    Of course, not long ago this would have been a tremendous asset for any railway themed 'adventure playground' - and there are a few of them about. I don't think it'd pass the risk assessment these days though.
     
  8. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Yes, but why bother (to regauge, I mean)? It might be possible, but you'd end up with a coach of questionable historic significance and which could probably only run at only one heritage line in the country. Whereas, at the same time, any number of historic carriages that have real significance to this country are rotting away for want of funds and manpower.

    Again, in a world of infinite resources, it might be worth doing what you say. But resources are finite, so money and skills thrown at that coach means something else of arguably more historic significance rots away for lack of resources. It's a kind of zero sum game...

    For anyone who hasn't come across it before, it is worth reading the paper on significance of heritage carriages, available at Railway Carriage Significance. You may argue with the scoring system set out there, but you can't argue that some vehicles are simply more valuable, and therefore deserving of finance, than others.

    Incidentally, there is an interesting paragraph about how to consider the significance of duplicate vehicles:

    Which makes interesting reading when considering whether to put funds towards the 20th example of a specific type of engine...

    Tom
     
  9. ssk2400

    ssk2400 New Member

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    there is the Pilling Pig a 060 saddle tank plinthed in the village of Pilling just outside of Blackpool it looks complete and in good condition , Google it !
     
  10. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    That looks in pretty good condition, or at least very well cared for externally.

    There was a Hawthorn Leslie plinthed for many years outside Leatherhead Leisure Centre, but that went quite recently for eventual restoration by a group based at Isfield.

    Tom
     
  11. ilvaporista

    ilvaporista Part of the furniture

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    Everybody seems to be debating the large loco which is frankly of limited use except maybe for a museum.

    Remember that this started about the two Polish tanks. At least these two are to the right gauge, potentially useful on some heritage lines and in a condition to form a viable restoration project.

    Despite many calls and contacts I can not find anyone who will actually assist in putting money in to become a part owner. That includes people in UK, Italy, Germany and Switzerland.

    The basic reason, they are not relevant to the home locations and are not fondly remembered.
    So if there is no money available for a potentially useful loco what chance does a 'dinosaur' have?
     
  12. MuzTrem

    MuzTrem Member

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    An entirely valid argument. I was merely trying to make the point that people are screaming in horror about the potential scrapping of the engine, whereas nobody seems to care about the coach. Sadly, that's all too often the way in railway preservation.
    Now yes, if it's a choice between saving the Finnish coach and restoring the Barnums or the Hull & Barnsley coaches, I'd pick the British vehicles. On the other hand, if somebody wanted a coach body, say, to convert into sleeping accommodation at their railway-themed hotel (such places do exisit), or if a standard-gauge railway wanted a static vehicle for use as volunteer accommodation or to house a museum/model railway or similar, then this vehicle might be of interest to them. You may say that we could use another Mk.I or Mk.II for those roles - but we have plenty of those preserved in Britain, and it would just be a shame to see something a little bit more interesting go for scrap.
    Of course, I'm working on the assumption that, since the Finns have not shown any interest in the loco, they haven't expressed any interest in the coach either. How many Finnish coaches of similar type are preserved, I don't know.
    Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not in the "keep everything" camp. I was merely trying to make the point that, out of the two Finnish items under threat, the coach is the one that has more potential use in this country, or in nearby Western European countries, yet it is the one that it attracting less attention. And, as has just been pointed out, the Tkhs are more useful than either, yet we've allowed ourselves to become side-tracked onto the Finnish items...
     
  13. stan the man

    stan the man Member

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    Its seems as if some folks on this forum get some kind of perverted kick by righting off a steam loco and saying scrap it...

    Mothballing an engine is quite simple.... come on folks lets not go back to the bad old days of steam locos being broken up in the UK.

    I would also guess that if EOR did break up this engine it will give them bad publicity perhaps at a time when they should be getting good publicity.

    Stan
     
  14. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    It's Ok saying mothball it, but you have to be realistic, no one is showing any interest in it now, therefore who is going to pay for this 'simple process' of mothballing?
     
  15. stan the man

    stan the man Member

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    Who says no-one is showing interest??

    There isnt alot you need to mothball a loco other than oil, bitumen paint and grease plus periodic maintainance. Well thats how I do it.

    Stan
     
  16. mickpop

    mickpop Resident of Nat Pres

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    If 'mothballed' is there any more likelihood that anyone is going to want to restore this loco in five or ten years time? It will still be the wrong gauge, have nowhere to run and need an expensive overhaul. It is not a case of getting a perverted kick from advocating scrapping a loco that is not unique, has no practical use and has no-one offering the funds to maintain it, It is a case of being realistic and accepting that there are many more worthy projects that would come to fruition quicker if funds were directed to them rather than spread thinly on hopeless projects of no practical value. and with a very minority appeal. I can't see there being a queue of people chaining themselves to the loco or writing angry letters to the times so I don't think the EOR need worry.

    I despair at times at contributors who see themselves as some kind of saint because they need to portray such a fanatical love of the steam loco that they can't think rationally.It's the kind of attitude that used to see trainspotters on the platform booing diesels or locos not from their favourite Region or company.:frusty:
     
  17. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    I for one applaud your determination and I look forward to seeing some pictures when you have finished the job.
     
  18. Miff

    Miff Part of the furniture Friend

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    Agreed, but where do you put it?

    It will be a shame if this loco is scrapped but EOR have made it clear they no longer have the space. To be fair to EOR (both current and former owners) most of the Finnish stock which was there has now been relocated, and the railway is retaining one loco for static display.
     
  19. stan the man

    stan the man Member

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    Give me the engine, give me somewhere to put it and yes I will do the job...perhaps you may care to help???

    Stan
     
  20. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    lol - anything else??!! :D
     

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